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Thread: How not to become the next George Zimmerman

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    How not to become the next George Zimmerman

    Shot a video this morning, hope it's helpful.

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    How not to become the next George Zimmerman

    It is easy not to become the next M. Just don't become a thug and don't assault an honest citizen for no lawful reason. Pretty simple.


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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    I'm far more concerned about not becoming the next Travon Marton. Got a video for that? Gotta love how some here are so sure it was self defence as if they seen the whole thing first hand. May have been, I suppose it's possible but theres one who can't give testomony. All I know is just about anyone can follow or stalk me, shoot me dead and walk free by saying I attacked them. If I was to speculate wit is what others here seem to be doing, I'd say there was some self defence on both sides. This was likely a fight between two consenting, ,, well one consenting adult and a teenager. In my case they will probibly just bang their head against a tree or something to create the self defence excuse.
    That one comment undermined everything else you were trying to say by showing a logic failure.

    I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying to omit that argument next time.

    Here's what I mean. Anytime a defender kills his opponent, there is only one testimony. Just because there is only one does not, cannot, make a liar out of that one. Your argument is basically undermining every legitimate defender who killed his attacker. Including Martin if he had killed Zimmerman. And, yourself, if you ever kill an attacker.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    I'm far more concerned about not becoming the next Travon Marton. Got a video for that? Gotta love how some here are so sure it was self defence as if they seen the whole thing first hand. May have been, I suppose it's possible but theres one who can't give testomony. All I know is just about anyone can follow or stalk me, shoot me dead and walk free by saying I attacked them. If I was to speculate wit is what others here seem to be doing, I'd say there was some self defence on both sides. This was likely a fight between two consenting, ,, well one consenting adult and a teenager. In my case they will probibly just bang their head against a tree or something to create the self defence excuse.
    Have you checked out the official timeline of events?

    7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call.
    7:17 — The first office officer on the scene, Officer T. Smith arrives by squad car at Retreat View.
    7:17:40+ — Officer Smith arrives at the crime scene.
    7:19:07 — Photo taken of Zimmerman's head injuries by a civilian bystander.

    Two minutes and twelve seconds is an awful lot of time for that amount of swelling to kick in, and 45 seconds isn't enough for someone to inflict that damage to themselves.

    **Disclaimer: You are entitled to your opinion, even if you don't recognize it will never change the opinions of the six jurors in the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    Have you checked out the official timeline of events?

    7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call.
    7:17 — The first office officer on the scene, Officer T. Smith arrives by squad car at Retreat View.
    7:17:40+ — Officer Smith arrives at the crime scene.
    7:19:07 — Photo taken of Zimmerman's head injuries by a civilian bystander.

    Two minutes and twelve seconds is an awful lot of time for that amount of swelling to kick in, and 45 seconds isn't enough for someone to inflict that damage to themselves.

    **Disclaimer: You are entitled to your opinion, even if you don't recognize it will never change the opinions of the six jurors in the case.
    There is just one small detail you are leaving out in your timeline. How long had the attack been ongoing before the gunshot was heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    I agree, Zimmerman could very well be telling the truth. I agree that the case against him wasn't proven. I just can't get past the fact that he set out to keep an eye on someone who he decided was probibly up to no good. I can't begin to count the number of times someone thought, or claimed I was up to no good. I've never killed an attacker yet and believe me when I say I have been attacked probibly a handfull of times. It's always justified and I'm in the wrong. In that way, I can somewhat relate to Martin. But your right about everything else.
    So what? Someone kept an eye on you. If you were near me, I'd keep a weather eye out for you too! If you are in public, you are subject to being observed. If you don't like that, stay home. I applaud Z for keeping an eye on M. His behavior warranted it, but there would have been nothing wrong with Z's observation anyway.

    Oh, and FTR, folks, this is the poster who formerly used the handle "Joanie." Just helping you make the linkages between these posts and the others.
    Last edited by eye95; 07-15-2013 at 08:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    I'm far more concerned about not becoming the next Travon Marton. Got a video for that? Gotta love how some here are so sure it was self defence as if they seen the whole thing first hand. May have been, I suppose it's possible but theres one who can't give testomony. All I know is just about anyone can follow or stalk me, shoot me dead and walk free by saying I attacked them. If I was to speculate wit is what others here seem to be doing, I'd say there was some self defence on both sides. This was likely a fight between two consenting, ,, well one consenting adult and a teenager. In my case they will probibly just bang their head against a tree or something to create the self defence excuse.
    It does not matter what anyone here thinks. It only mattered what six citizens thought. Case closed.....so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    I'm far more concerned about not becoming the next Travon Marton. Got a video for that? Gotta love how some here are so sure it was self defence as if they seen the whole thing first hand. May have been, I suppose it's possible but theres one who can't give testomony. All I know is just about anyone can follow or stalk me, shoot me dead and walk free by saying I attacked them. If I was to speculate wit is what others here seem to be doing, I'd say there was some self defence on both sides. This was likely a fight between two consenting, ,, well one consenting adult and a teenager. In my case they will probibly just bang their head against a tree or something to create the self defence excuse.
    It's pretty clear Martin thought he would "stand up for himself" (AKA act like a thug) by beating up Z. Unfortunately, there is never a valid reason to physically assault someone.

    Don't do this, and you won't become the next M. Simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    It's pretty clear Martin thought he would "stand up for himself" (AKA act like a thug) by beating up Z. Unfortunately, there is never a valid reason to physically assault someone.

    Don't do this, and you won't become the next M. Simple.

    Hmm. I wonder. I think you might be onto something there.

    It seems pretty plausible to me that a young black man, having experienced both institutional and private racism, and having its existence pounded into him from birth, might just finally say, "I've had it! I'm not doing anything wrong and here is another MFer profiling me just for walking home with a snack! That's it! I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    Moreover, I wonder if that is the real reason TM got so much support from the black community? I wonder if there is an undercurrent of, "That could be me or my son who finally had enough." I also wonder if there is an element there of not wanting to hold TM responsible for his actions because they can see themselves reacting the same way? They can appreciate why he acted the way he did?

    It seems to me that maybe racism did get TM killed, just not in the obvious way.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hmm. I wonder. I think you might be onto something there.

    It seems pretty plausible to me that a young black man, having experienced both institutional and private racism, and having its existence pounded into him from birth, might just finally say, "I've had it! I'm not doing anything wrong and here is another MFer profiling me just for walking home with a snack! That's it! I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    Moreover, I wonder if that is the real reason TM got so much support from the black community? I wonder if there is an undercurrent of, "That could be me or my son who finally had enough." I also wonder if there is an element there of not wanting to hold TM responsible for his actions because they can see themselves reacting the same way? They can appreciate why he acted the way he did?

    It seems to me that maybe racism did get TM killed, just not in the obvious way.
    Which son is a better question. The 13/14 TM as was repeatedly depicted in news reports. Or the 17 TM as he depicted himself on a video sharing web site.

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    Re: How not to become the next George Zimmerman

    It doesn't matter whether or not GZ got out of his car and followed TM. It doesn't matter. What matters in this case is the fact that TM DECIDED. He DECIDED to attack another human being. Who beat someone bad enough to get a broken nose and several lacerations all over his head. To also include black eyes. GZ also was carrying concealed and it stayed concealed until the moment he shot him. Do you think TM would have attacked if GZ had the gun out? No. What does that say? It says that GZ had no intention of killing him. That he was only following for id purposes. When Trayvon Martin DECIDED and made the conscious choice to attack another human being and beat him he was shot.

    George Zimmerman shot because he thought his life was in danger. What puts someones life in danger is different for everyone. What puts me in fear of my life would be different than what would put a Navy SEAL's life in danger. Two different extremes. But everyone is different. Everyone would have a different degree of what they themselves would see as dangerous to their life. You cannot say his life was not in danger. You cannot say oh he was a 17 years old and he was unarmed because in 2011 there were 728 murders by someone beating someone else to death with their fists.

    You can try to spin this anyway you want. You can say "Oh it wasn't about the fact that TM was black and GZ was half white." ********. Flat out f'ing ********. This got turned into a racial issue. Nobody gave 2 ***** that a 12 year old white girl was murdered by 2 black teens for her bike. (Autumn Pasquale) This got turned into a racial issue. White people got a bad case of white guilt and the black community just saw another way to get all up in arms about something else. Plain as day. With black on black crime always prevalent always happening. Where is Jesse Jackson and AL Sharpton on that? Why isn't the black community just as active and loud about that issue? Because that would point the finger in the direction they don't want. That would say, "We are responsible for more black murders than any other racial group. We kill our own."

    GZ killing TM was not about race until the media made it about race. This was about a man who was brutally attacked and felt the need to defend himself. The only thing that could remotely with any possibility be pointed in the direction of evidence for the prosecution in this case would be that he got out of his car to follow. (About to split a hair here but a still a sound argument.) After being told, "You don't have to do that." That was not an order. The 911 operator did not say, "Do not follow him. Stay in your car." Even if he did say that a 911 operator is not a police officer.

    Please. This became about race because people wanted it to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hmm. I wonder. I think you might be onto something there.

    It seems pretty plausible to me that a young black man, having experienced both institutional and private racism, and having its existence pounded into him from birth, might just finally say, "I've had it! I'm not doing anything wrong and here is another MFer profiling me just for walking home with a snack! That's it! I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    Moreover, I wonder if that is the real reason TM got so much support from the black community? I wonder if there is an undercurrent of, "That could be me or my son who finally had enough." I also wonder if there is an element there of not wanting to hold TM responsible for his actions because they can see themselves reacting the same way? They can appreciate why he acted the way he did?

    It seems to me that maybe racism did get TM killed, just not in the obvious way.

    ... "Racism" is merely a crutch they are taught to use as an excuse to justify doing things they know darned-well to be wrong, and hope to be given a pass on. Does "racism" exist? Sure, of course, for some, but for many out there it is over-used, worn-out as an excuse, and just plain nonsense. Certain folks go to great lengths to complain about certain stereotypes that they claim to despise, yet go out of their way to try to LIVE UP TO, that very stereotype. And when someone responds or reacts to that image being presented, they pull out the "race" issue because they've come to expect everyone to start stepping on eggshells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    So what? Someone kept an eye on you. If you were near me, I'd keep a weather eye out for you too! If you are in public, you are subject to being observed. If you don't like that, stay home. I applaud Z for keeping an eye on M. His behavior warranted it, but there would have been nothing wrong with Z's observation anyway.

    Oh, and FTR, folks, this is the poster who formerly used the handle "Joanie." Just helping you make the linkages between these posts and the others.
    Thank you, I didn't know that, so I take it she deleted the Joanie SN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    ... "Racism" is merely a crutch they are taught to use as an excuse to justify doing things they know darned-well to be wrong, and hope to be given a pass on. Does "racism" exist? Sure, of course, for some, but for many out there it is over-used, worn-out as an excuse, and just plain nonsense. Certain folks go to great lengths to complain about certain stereotypes that they claim to despise, yet go out of their way to try to LIVE UP TO, that very stereotype. And when someone responds or reacts to that image being presented, they pull out the "race" issue because they've come to expect everyone to start stepping on eggshells.
    I don't know that its that simple. While examples of which you write do exist, in plenty, I think we'd be foolish to over-simplify and pretend that was all there was. People come in a marvelous variety of attitudes and ideas.

    Imagine you were a member of a repressed group, taught all your life by adults who experienced it first hand in their youth, hearing their perhaps warped or outdated view. At some point, I can see that pushing a fella over the edge if he is confronted with what he thinks is a real-life example.

    Or, lets say, much of your life, every time or most times that The Man urged you to be "reasonable", you later discovered you were being lied to. That every time you held in abeyance your anger in the name of being "reasonable", you discovered The Man was lying to you and using your own civility against you. At some point, you're going to just up and say, "Eff the Man." You're certain that any excuse or platitude he offers is just another in a long string of lies designed to lull your anger, and that, just like many previous times, you're bound to come out on the short end of the stick.

    I can see that pushing somebody over the edge. I can see rioting as a couple generations of anger boils over.

    Its just another reason to respect everybody's rights. And, demand the race-baiters and politicians stop taking advantage of minorities.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-15-2013 at 01:30 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    As for becomming a Z or an TM,... I think both of them could have used better-judgement, but in the end, Z probably ended up doing what he felt he had to, under the circumstances.

    Had the kid been in the right, he could have simply handled it, when/if approached, or asked by Z, by simply stating that his father was visiting a resident, and he was heading back there from the store. Z, would probably have simply said, Ah ok, and/or verified that by checking -or having police verify the father's location at the residence being visited.

    Out here, where I am, after events at my place 2 -3 yrs ago, and a string of break-ins and robberies, you better believe every one of us on this block approach ANY strangers to our area, and verify their reason for being here, if we dont recognize them. No matter WHAT color/race/ethnicity/potantial sexual orientation/gender, they may be.
    Granted, we dont approach them all gruff and "who are you/why are you here? get out of here" or anything, but simple, polite, inquiry. "Hey, can I help you?" etc.
    Reason is simple: there's only 8 residences here, on a dead-end road out in the sticks. There is absolutely NOTHING of interest to anyone who doesnt have biz here, for them to travel all the way out here. If they are here to visit, or do some sort of work for someone who lives out here, it's something we are able to verify easily, by simply contacting them and asking them.
    If the person has no legit biz out here, they are calmly encouraged to make most haste to some other destination.
    Of course, it helps, that almost everyone here is OC when home/around the home, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    Shot a video this morning, hope it's helpful.
    Forgot this advice: Don't make videos when driving

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    How not to become the next George Zimmerman

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Thank you, I didn't know that, so I take it she deleted the Joanie SN.
    Probably not. As I understand it, everything posted under that name is invisible to everyone except the staff and the poster. I think it took quite a while for that poster to figure it out.


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    I think from TM's background that GZ had him spot on as a potential burglar. And I think if GZ had not followed him there would have been a break in. From the recordings I believe TM changed his plan to play "knockout". GZ made a tactical or logistical error to blindly follow TM into a secluded area. But that was not illegal and in no way justified the attack. If TM had actually been in fear he would have gone home, or called 911, instead he laid in wait.

    Yes they both made errors, it was fatal for one of them, it could have been fatal for GZ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hmm. I wonder. I think you might be onto something there.

    It seems pretty plausible to me that a young black man, having experienced both institutional and private racism, and having its existence pounded into him from birth, might just finally say, "I've had it! I'm not doing anything wrong and here is another MFer profiling me just for walking home with a snack! That's it! I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    Moreover, I wonder if that is the real reason TM got so much support from the black community? I wonder if there is an undercurrent of, "That could be me or my son who finally had enough." I also wonder if there is an element there of not wanting to hold TM responsible for his actions because they can see themselves reacting the same way? They can appreciate why he acted the way he did?

    It seems to me that maybe racism did get TM killed, just not in the obvious way.
    In this scenario (which I don't find at all far-fetched), I have sympathy for the motivations of TM.

    But that doesn't change the final analysis.

    In fact, one of the great ironies of the meta-issue is the "macho BS subculture" (my words) which believes that physical assault ("beating up" someone) is a valid/efficacious way of "standing up for yourself"; this subculture is one of the very things reinforcing racial-cultural divides, and "keeping the black man down" by ensuring he constantly winds himself up in jail.

    I will be the first to admit there are circumstantial disadvantages out of their control, but a very good first step would be, for example, TM's mother to acknowledge her role in the death of her son, by failing to instill in him one of the most important pieces of advice: do not start fights. If she really wanted to honor her son and his death, she would ensure that this lesson be spread as far and wide within her community as possible. It would save many, many lives. And it would be a step down the road towards racial-cultural equality.
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-15-2013 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    SNIP But that doesn't change the final analysis.
    Agreed. I'm more thinking out loud about the ramifications of racism and suppression. I suspect the same ideas cover both. Whether a group is suppressed because of their race, economic status, religious minority status, or whatever, it probably matters little in the end because, after all, equality is equality, and freedom is freedom.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-15-2013 at 02:47 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Evidence relating to Martin's default physical violence propensity was withheld from the jurors.

    Had the text messaging extracted from Martin's phone been introduced in the presence of the jury they would have rendered a verdict acquitting Zimmerman in less than an hour Friday night.

    I was an armed neighborhood watch block captain in Colorado Springs a few years ago. I began to realize that the other residents of the community were increasingly calling ME instead of the PD upon observing " suspicious young black males" in the vicinity of their units. That's when I withdrew from my "official" neighborhood watch position.

    Lesson to the "neighborhood watchers" = call the PD and report " suspicions persons".

    Lesson to those who feel compelled to administer beat-downs to people who annoy them - DON'T.

    Lesson to mothers home alone with their young children when home invaders break into their houses - you should own, and carry a gun 24/7 to protect your family and yourself from such threats. It is not somebody else's responsibility to protect you.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 07-15-2013 at 03:16 PM.

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    Re: How not to become the next George Zimmerman

    In theory, I've decided to avoid or retreat in any confrontation where the other party (ies) dont have a weapon in hand. I believe and the jury believed Zimmerman did that until M used the pavement as a deadly weapon.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    Had the text messaging extracted from Martin's phone been introduced in the presence of the jury they would have rendered a verdict acquitting Zimmerman in less than an hour Friday night.
    Can you quote?

    There must be some discrepancy between the actual texts, and how they are described, for what you say to be true.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backupid View Post
    Do you have valid proof of that?, that M was the one who attacked, and that Z didn't provoke it in the least? Easy to put a dead person on trial, they can't really defend themself. I still think it was a fight between the two and Z wasn't likeing the outcome, so he cheated. Far as M goes, he probibly made some poor choices. It's not always easy to think clearly when your put on the spot.

    So we have two guys, probibly both looking for trouble, even if they had to make it themselves. Just alot more trouble than one of the guys bargined for. But I'm only guessing as I wasn't there.
    No proof, just a good sense for these things (I'm usually right, you know).

    Don't look for trouble. Don't give it a chance to come to you.

    I'd have much more sympathy for M if he had done any of the things a victim usually does, such as immediately go home when he first noticed the "crazy cracker" "stalking" him. That's what I'd do, and it's not because I'm a repressed minority. It's because there's a time and place and a way to "stand up for yourself", and this was none of those.

    In short, M put himself on the spot by letting his ego and testosterone dictate his actions. 17 is plenty old enough to have learned better, by the way, unless you come from a culture which halts development during adolescence ("Derp! Let's go beat that guy's ass! That'll show him!").
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-15-2013 at 05:33 PM.

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