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Thread: CWL holder had gun in his pocket, charged with shooting after failed 'quick draw'.

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    CWL holder had gun in his pocket, charged with shooting after failed 'quick draw'.

    "He then showed a police sergeant his concealed carry license and said, "It was an accident." ... He later admitted he was "jokingly" telling his cousin not to walk away from dinner and tried a "quick draw" of his gun but it caught on his shirt and went off."

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/m...215574081.html

    Don't miss his rap sheet. http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl
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    WOW!! Was he asleep in the CCL class!! Bozos like these will get us into trouble. Just need incidences like these and the madistan Dems are going to get ants in their pants!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    WOW!! Was he asleep in the CCL class!! Bozos like these will get us into trouble. Just need incidences like these and the madistan Dems are going to get ants in their pants!!
    This was poor judgement, lack of respect for the danger of the weapon.

    BUT,

    Trained and validly licensed auto and truck drivers make similar mistakes, sometimes with tragic outcomes.

    Commercial airliners (Asiana) with 3 licensed pilots in the cockpit, fail to pay attention to airspeed when landing.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    On other sites I keep hearing that untrained OC are responsible for "accidental" discharges, yet time and time again it is these supposed highly trained safe, sane, sober permittees screwing up. No amount of training or classes can instill common sense. It does seem though that OC people have more common sense than the CC side.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 07-15-2013 at 09:57 PM.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Question is, why was he trying a "quick draw" with a loaded gun? (Cause if it weren't loaded, it certainly would not have caused an injury.)
    Is there a news article discussing this headline?
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Question is, why was he trying a "quick draw" with a loaded gun? (Cause if it weren't loaded, it certainly would not have caused an injury.)
    Is there a news article discussing this headline?
    http://www.wisconsinstar.com/index.p...a460830d69bfa0

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/m...215574081.html
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Whoever his instructor was, they're hoping they don't get called to testify in court. It'd probably be for the prosecution.
    I'll include this in my presentation as a "what not to do" lesson.

    he was "jokingly" telling his cousin not to walk away from dinner and tried a "quick draw" of his gun but it caught on his shirt and went off
    Sounds like he had his finger on the trigger.
    And since he was in his home, having a license doesn't matter. No reason for him to bring that into the discussion. Probably one more thing that either wasn't mentioned in his class or didn't sink in.

    ETA: At least he doesn't have any kind of criminal record. A couple driving violations & he knocked someone up. So hopefully this won't make him an instant felon.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-15-2013 at 10:28 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post

    Whoever his instructor was, they're hoping they don't get called to testify in court. It'd probably be for the prosecution.
    I'll include this in my presentation as a "what not to do" lesson.


    Sounds like he had his finger on the trigger.
    And since he was in his home, having a license doesn't matter. No reason for him to bring that into the discussion. Probably one more thing that either wasn't mentioned in his class or didn't sink in.

    ETA: At least he doesn't have any kind of criminal record. A couple driving violations & he knocked someone up. So hopefully this won't make him an instant felon.
    He should be charged with a felony. He shot a person during horseplay, there is no excuse for that kind of reckless behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    WOW!! Was he asleep in the CCL class!! Bozos like these will get us into trouble. Just need incidences like these and the madistan Dems are going to get ants in their pants!!
    no, but it shows that these classes are WORTHLESS and only meant to increase the cost to people.

    Don't worry, I think you will not get into trouble for this goofball's actions.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    no, but it shows that these classes are WORTHLESS and only meant to increase the cost to people.

    Don't worry, I think you will not get into trouble for this goofball's actions.
    CHP/permit classes are "worthless"....pleeze!

    Education, training, knowledge are IMHO priceless. Whether one uses these to their benefit or not is solely on them.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare;1961437....

    Don't miss his rap sheet. [url
    http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl[/url]
    He lives in a trailer park. He's the 1% that give those places their bad reputation. Look for a new reality TV show starring him starting next season.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    "Quick draw from a pocket". I wonder if he had a holster?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Whoever his instructor was, they're hoping they don't get called to testify in court. It'd probably be for the prosecution.
    Wisconsin Statutes subsection 175.60(21) IMMUNITY. (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).

    Note also the annotation (recent?) of a July 2012 Wisconsin Lawyer article http://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublicatio...ArticleID=8710 The article has a number of mentions of "immunity", though not of a trainer.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug
    Don't miss his rap sheet
    As I pointed out above, he's had a couple of vehicle tickets, a paternity suit, and now this.
    Not exactly a "rap sheet".
    Certainly not worth calling attention to, unless you want to underscore that this is not a bad person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    CHP/permit classes are "worthless"....pleeze!

    Education, training, knowledge are IMHO priceless. Whether one uses these to their benefit or not is solely on them.
    I wouldn't say worthless, but they do not do what the proponents claim. Accidents, assaults, NDs, murders mostly have come from trained CC class graduates, not the untrained OC. The stories of outright lies in these classes abound, and certainly by the number of these ego driven instructors like Runaway show that there are real problems with mandated classes as they are.

    The biggest problem is you cannot teach common sense. It is either there or it is not. So factor in that most CC holders are good and responsible, but that most problems come from this side of carry. And what you end up with is the mentality of those that open carry tend to have more common sense, even without training.

    What credibility does a class have that nobody fails? For people to absorb education, they have to want to absorb it, otherwise it is just a joke.

    Two words to education to highlight my point Rachel Jeantel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ... What credibility does a class have that nobody fails? For people to absorb education, they have to want to absorb it, otherwise it is just a joke. ...
    Well said.

    My 1996 CWP required a 100 question multiple-guess test with a minimum passing grade of 70%. The instructor assured the class (of four) that the instruction would be repeated at no charge until a passing grade was achieved. The fifty rounds shooting exercise also required 70%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Wisconsin Statutes subsection 175.60(21) IMMUNITY. (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).

    Note also the annotation (recent?) of a July 2012 Wisconsin Lawyer article http://www.wisbar.org/NewsPublicatio...ArticleID=8710 The article has a number of mentions of "immunity", though not of a trainer.
    Immunity doesn't mean an instructor can't still be called to testify.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a).
    Well, what instructor is going to admit that he is a good faith idiot cuz his course (he himself) did not address 'X', which may be construed to have contributed to the discharge. I suspect the the instructor's guide (lesson plan) is vetted by the authorizing authority (sorry) prior to the instructor presenting his first class.

    Nope, a instructor hits every discussion point that is contained in the approved course without missing a single point. Thus the instructor can claim that the potentially deficient course was approved by the authorizing authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I suspect the the instructor's guide (lesson plan) is vetted by the authorizing authority (sorry) prior to the instructor presenting his first class.
    Nope, vetting not required.

    ss 175.60(4)(a)

    (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:

    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the department of natural resources.
    b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
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    175.60(4) Training requirements.
    (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:

    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the department of natural resources.
    b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.

    2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd. 1.

    3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.

    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.

    (b)
    1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
    b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training.
    2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).
    Ya know, it sure is odd that some folks will cite a portion of a law and not all of the law.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ya know, it sure is odd that some folks will cite a portion of a law and not all of the law.
    "Some of the people will properly cite some of the time, but not all of the people will so cite all of the time." P. T. Grapeshot (2013)

    Some are citeless.

    I prefer the shorthand method of simply giving a link, maybe with an appropriate clause/part noted.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-16-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Well, what instructor is going to admit that he is a good faith idiot
    Just the opposite. As was previously mentioned he/she could get subpoenaed by the prosecution to show this kind of handling wasn't instructed to bury any claims the defense makes.

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Well said.

    My 1996 CWP required a 100 question multiple-guess test with a minimum passing grade of 70%. The instructor assured the class (of four) that the instruction would be repeated at no charge until a passing grade was achieved. The fifty rounds shooting exercise also required 70%.
    Was that in South Carolina, Doug?
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    "I am educated. Trust me, I have a 3.0 Im good."

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ... What credibility does a class have that nobody fails? For people to absorb education, they have to want to absorb it, otherwise it is just a joke. Two words to education to highlight my point Rachel Jeantel.
    "Whats next for Rachel Jeantel?

    My education is first. I am educated. Trust me, I have a 3.0 Im good. I need to get my life straight because this situation got a whole lot of things in my mind so I want to clear it up.

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    The Wisconsin Department Of Justice only certifies instructors with a LEO background. The DOJ certified instructors must follow a curriculum prepared by the DOJ.

    However those who have received a Wisconsin Concealed Carry License, may have had their training requirement fulfilled by many other methods, including a Hunter Safety Education Course, A military or LEO or Private Security Training course, or a course presented by an instructor from a State or National organization.

    I do not know which method was used to qualify the Wisconsin Licensee who is the subject of this post.
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