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Thread: My CCW is up for Renewal

  1. #1
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    My CCW is up for Renewal

    So my first choice obviously is Mac 702.... But sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise. I went to the SB 221 hearing and received a free CCW class, from Guns and Ammo Garage, I had a couple of friends who wanted to take the class as well.

    I must say up front that my free class was not free. I will be spending much time dealing with my free class. So are my friends.

    I showed up with the full day crew (first timers) and there was a good looking Gal for an instructor. She did not flinch at our open carry, but after class had started she came over and emptied our weapons, making them match hers.

    Class was OK, and I was ready for miss-information..... But not like I received!

    I have the booklet that is "approved by the sheriffs and chiefs association," So I can make some direct quotes:

    Section 12 Pg. 31 is titled "concealed carry in Nevada - where and how to carry.

    A. Open Carry: Don't Do It
    • Gives up a Tactical advantage (surprise)
    • Raises weapon retention issues.
    • Open carry is not legal or illegal.
    • By statute the Nevada constitution says only: "sec, 11 Right to keep and bear arms;civil power supreme supreme
    • 1. Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes." You Can Beat the Rap but Not the Ride.



    The material went on to say you are disqualified from carrying in Henderson, Las Vegas, and state parks. the instructor said she thought we could carry at Lake Meade.

    I am not saying anything new. As long as the NSCA has control of the curriculum, this misinformation will propagate.

    At the end of the Day my friend who has been happily open carrying for about a year, said she felt dissuaded from carrying at all after the class, as it was such a downer.

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    Was the instructor associated with Guns & Ammo Garage or was she an outside contractor?

    In either case, you should let Guns & Ammo Garage know about the misinformation. Also, she should not have handled your sidearms; at best, she should have asked you to unload and explained why she wanted your guns unloaded.

    mbogo

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Bummer.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    She was an employee, I thought they would be more interested in the "rights movement" since they were offering classes for participation in the legislative process. Turns out it was marketing. That in itself is not bad but it was misleading. and now i feel like I cheated on Mac.

    I did a little research, GAG used to be a muffler shop, the owner Mark Cole moved the muffler shop and turned that building into the range it is today. maybe I should turn one of my semi trailers into a range, and team up with Mac....

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    ...they were offering classes for participation in the legislative process. ...
    Here's the part that will really hit you.

    I advertised the same deal through the NV Shooters forum (G&A Garage and I are both forum sponsors), but I myself was in Oregon and unable to attend the hearing to actually get the word out personally.

    That said, I will offer a session for your group free of charge (you've earned it here as well), just to reinforce the real laws and comfort them about carrying again. My gun will be loaded while I teach the class, and yours may be as well.

    Meanwhile, have everyone get their paperwork submitted. I'll best be able to do something when I'm not so busy with air conditioning like I am this and next month.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Here's the part that will really hit you.

    I advertised the same deal through the NV Shooters forum (G&A Garage and I are both forum sponsors), but I myself was in Oregon and unable to attend the hearing to actually get the word out personally.

    That said, I will offer a session for your group free of charge (you've earned it here as well), just to reinforce the real laws and comfort them about carrying again. My gun will be loaded while I teach the class, and yours may be as well.

    Meanwhile, have everyone get their paperwork submitted. I'll best be able to do something when I'm not so busy with air conditioning like I am this and next month.
    Face palm.

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    This sucks. Adam one of the owners had been a real supporter of open carry. He used to post here even. I have never had a issue open carry in the store at all. I would past this over at nv shooters Dave. Adam is very active there and I would think he wants to rectify this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    This sucks. Adam one of the owners had been a real supporter of open carry. He used to post here even. I have never had a issue open carry in the store at all. I would past this over at nv shooters Dave. Adam is very active there and I would think he wants to rectify this.
    I emailed the instructor, and let her know that if her bosses would consider some help "updating" their curriculum, I would help. we will see what happens or not.

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    You're mistaking the required class for an actual education.

    You got through the class and got the ticket punched. That's all the class is for, you can ignore everything else.

    When MAC has a chance to talk to you, THEN you will learn something.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    I emailed the instructor, and let her know that if her bosses would consider some help "updating" their curriculum, I would help. we will see what happens or not.
    I would GUESS it is her curriculum, and not theirs. I'm sure your suggestion will be filed appropriately.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    My CCW is up for Renewal

    It's a shame there are so few options for a good CCW course.

    MAC doesn't fit inside my budget. The inexpensive/free courses are teaching lies as fact, which I couldn't sit through without saying something....

    Where does that leave me? OC only, I guess. Not that it's a bad thing but it'd be nice to have the option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    You're mistaking the required class for an actual education.

    You got through the class and got the ticket punched. That's all the class is for, you can ignore everything else.

    When MAC has a chance to talk to you, THEN you will learn something.
    That Is exactly the attitude I went in with, Ben through the gun store and discount firearms, so I knew whatr to expect. I for the most part even shut my pie hole. My friend however left there not wanting to carry a gun at all. How can that be good? she has been OCing for a year + now with no issues.

    I got a response back from the instructor, She assured me that she is not "anti Open Carry" and that she will be renovating the curriculum. She said she would appreciate input. So that's better than I thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    That Is exactly the attitude I went in with, Ben through the gun store and discount firearms, so I knew whatr to expect. I for the most part even shut my pie hole. My friend however left there not wanting to carry a gun at all. How can that be good? she has been OCing for a year + now with no issues.

    I got a response back from the instructor, She assured me that she is not "anti Open Carry" and that she will be renovating the curriculum. She said she would appreciate input. So that's better than I thought.
    Guessing. She does it for the money alone. She has never bothered to check the facts as her goal is to just move people through the class with as little effort on her part as possible.
    She didn't care as long as she met legal requirements.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 12 Pg. 31 of the class notes
    is titled "concealed carry in Nevada - where and how to carry.

    A. Open Carry: Don't Do It
    Gives up a Tactical advantage (surprise)
    Raises weapon retention issues.
    Open carry is not legal or illegal.
    That last statement is the one I initially misread and wrongly used in another thread (since corrected.)

    I now see what the store meant by that statement. OC is not specifically allowed by law, so they think they can say that it is "not legal or illegal." I think they are being very misleading with that statement, not to mention confusing, even initially to someone who would have known what they meant after careful consideration.

    Would they also tell people that wearing suspenders is "not legal or illegal?"

    If so, the word "neither" is the correct word, not "not:" "Open carry is neither legal nor illegal."
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-29-2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: corrected store/instructor confusion and added "neither" commentary
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    I wonder if it does not stem from the NSCA, I realize that mac can give his class without sowing these bad seeds but how much butt kissing do instructors "believe" they need to do, could be a component.

  16. #16
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    Except for my initial course outline approval (and I basically cut-and-pasted, with citation, the appropriate NRA courses chapters from Basic Handgun and Personal Protection Outside the Home Courses, modified with content from the official Utah state-provided outline), which comes from Metro's CCW Detail, I have had zero input or approval required from the NSCA.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    You're mistaking the required class for an actual education.

    You got through the class and got the ticket punched. That's all the class is for, you can ignore everything else.

    When MAC has a chance to talk to you, THEN you will learn something.
    This is why there are so many bad instructors because most believe this and therefore continue to look for the cheap way out. Then the gun nuts on forums start posting like they are the majority of carriers stating you get educated later while statistics say that most will never carry seriously or receive any other training beyond the required class. Most won't don't care most will spend 10x more money on equipment and toys than getting educated. You cant come into gun forums and see the truth. If I ask everyone here or NV Shooters if the spend money on training and they will say of course. They buy books DVDs practice ammo and they will all expound on the need for continuing education yet THEY ARE NOT THE MAJORITY OF PERMIT HOLDERS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    It's a shame there are so few options for a good CCW course.

    MAC doesn't fit inside my budget. The inexpensive/free courses are teaching lies as fact, which I couldn't sit through without saying something....

    Where does that leave me? OC only, I guess. Not that it's a bad thing but it'd be nice to have the option.
    Once again the cheap way out. If you can't afford the price of a good instructor for the simple 8hr class how does one fit into budget the cost of carry gear and practice ammo for honing of skills? It is a perishable skill and if not done frequently it degrades. I often ask "How valuable is your life?" Is it worth missing a night out to dinner? or maybe one less Starbucks every week for a couple of months? Should it be a priority over buying a new pair of sneakers? How about the cable bill?
    Where is the line? How big of part is it in your life to have control over your/family security and well being?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Guessing. She does it for the money alone. She has never bothered to check the facts as her goal is to just move people through the class with as little effort on her part as possible.
    She didn't care as long as she met legal requirements.

    TBG
    Just like many other people. We all work mostly for money. It's nice to be noble and pass on information but it boils down to being able to pay the bills. Most people will get into something because of the monetary incentive. Why does MAC still wrench on AC units? I'm sure it's purely because he loves the smell of Freon in the morning and believes it's a greater contribution to society providing temperature control the safety and security. The reason is that the majority of people value AC more than their safety. If you explained it in this manner they would disagree but actions speak louder than words. I'm fairly certain if the AC stops working they will pay and emergency call out fee or accept the higher rate of someone who will be available immediately rather than next week. It would surprise me if he didn't have extra charges for expedited service hell everything else does.
    I got into the business full time with credentials far beyond the NVSCA requirements and NO NRA certs it was based on my resume that the sheriff approved me. I listened to some great people I had met through the industry people I who are intelligent and better businessmen than I. I tried to read the gun forums and even more books. I trained constantly with others. What I realized it was mostly for not as the majority the real world people aren't on gun forums don't care about much beyond "getting their ticket punched" and do not value training as much as adding laser grips or buying yet a new wonder pistol. The main reason the gun stores have classes is purely a simple additional revenue stream the is high profit margin. They will contract the cheapest person who will sign off. I've had then sell a gun on Wednesday to a newby and send them to class on Sat. Think of CCW sort of like a drivers test you might want a little time behind the wheel first.
    It is why one shop up here gutted their classroom and turned it into a "tacticool gear" showroom. It's why an aquantence of that that shop asked me after I stopped working for the shop if I was still doing because the owner would never run a class as it wasn't worth it for him. Its why we couldn't even talk to people at the gun shows Jan through April they were to busy looking for another 10 30 rnd mags or 1000 rnds of ammo.
    Another person in the business who used to preach on the fact of providing quality and service no longer has his own beautiful state of the art classroom and uses a friends classroom on weekends when they are not homeschooling kids there.
    There's no space in the free classes here. When was then last time you got quality for free? and NO I don't believe that by spending more money is a product or service ALWAYS better. I'm tired of having the first question out of peoples mouths when they call be "How much is your class?" Tell them $100 and they can't hang up quick enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    That last statement is the one I initially misread and wrongly used in another thread (since corrected.)

    I now see what the instructor meant by that statement. OC is not specifically allowed by law, so she think she can say that it is "not legal or illegal." I think she is being very misleading with that statement, not to mention confusing, even initially to someone who would have known what she meant after careful consideration.

    Would she also tell people that wearing suspenders is "not legal or illegal?"

    Hey guys,
    You seem to have formed the opinion that this instructor was anti- OC and misleading. Not True.
    you posted this:
    07-17-2013, 12:36 PM
    MAC702
    I would GUESS it is her curriculum, and not theirs. I'm sure your suggestion will be filed appropriately.
    And this:
    The Big Guy
    Guessing. She does it for the money alone. She has never bothered to check the facts as her goal is to just move people through the class with as little effort on her part as possible.
    She didn't care as long as she met legal requirements.
    I kept trying to steer the conversation away from the instructor, and back to the problem which was their curriculum:
    DON`T TREAD ON ME
    I emailed the instructor, and let her know that if her bosses would consider some help "updating" their curriculum, I would help. we will see what happens or not.
    This is a quote: I never had a problem with the instructor: she actually was the "Shining Star" in the whole mess. She delivered the G&AG material flawlessly. That is why I learned how to spell the word curriculum prior to starting this thread.

    Everything that I have posted my objection to was either on the slide show presentation, and, or in the G&AG book.and was accompanied by a G&AG logo. not the instructors personal logo. Notice I cited Pg. numbers.

    If I took exception to anyone individually at the store, It would be the two "sloppy jalopy's" working the gun rental / range counter. Those lady's seemed preoccupied with things like, when is their wrinkle cream is going to start working, they charged us for range time that was supposed to be included, and were rude and indifferent when my friend said something.

    I am shocked that Adam has admitted that he has read this thread, and has decidedly not acted on the following:
    • Taking ownership for the G&AG curriculum they hired the instructor to teach!
    • Watching his instructor being unfairly targeted for teaching G&AG curriculum in this thread, and doing nothing!

    Until G&AG stands behind (owns) the training material they consciously put their logo on, how can one expect they will stand behind anything else that bears their logo?

    I want to reiterate, the instructor was NOT giving opinions, She was teaching the curriculum from the G&AG book and slideshow, both of which were adorned with the G&AG logo

    P.S. All future PM's I receive from G&AG will get posted to the appropriate thread. unless they are of a personal nature not an "open to the public" nature.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    You are right. I was thinking this was her curriculum from reading too quickly. I have amended my last post appropriately.

    Whose policy was it for your sidearms to be unloaded during the class?

    And why has no picture been posted of the instructor in question?
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-29-2013 at 10:16 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You are right. I was thinking this was her curriculum from reading too quickly. Amend my sentiments appropriately.

    Whose policy was it for your sidearms to be unloaded during the class?

    And why has no picture been posted of the instructor in question?
    G&AG has a policy of no loaded firearms in the classroom.

    As for the picture, that's not my style...... what little style I got!

    I received a phone call from the instructor, letting me know that the issues I brought up were being taken out of their curriculum. She was nice and proactive. and said that Mgmt. was on board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    G&AG has a policy of no loaded firearms in the classroom.

    As for the picture, that's not my style...... what little style I got!

    I received a phone call from the instructor, letting me know that the issues I brought up were being taken out of their curriculum. She was nice and proactive. and said that Mgmt. was on board.
    She contacts you a lot... I think she likes you

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    I am honestly shocked that you only gave me 13 hours (of which only 2 of were business hours) from your response to my PM at 11:08pm on 7/28 to your post attacking me at 12:14pm on 7/29.

    I could have posted a knee jerk reactionary response blindly defending our company, instructor and curriculum as soon as I saw this thread but I didn't. Instead I took the time to register on this site using our company name and PM you asking for clarification to your comments so that i could look into your concerns and address them properly.

    Even without your response to my PM I took steps on Sunday morning (only hours after first seeing this thread) to meet with our lead instructor, go over our curriculum, and discuss your concerns and the emails you have been exchanging with her since you took our class. We then made some immediate changes to our curriculum regarding OC, made a list of things to research and update as needed, and schedule a meeting to review our entire curriculum for any additional changes or improvements.

    So in less then 36 hours, including a weekend day, between when I discovered the thread at 7am on 7/28 and this post ~7pm on 7/29 I was able to address and resolve your concerns. But instead of allowing me a reasonable amount of time to respond and let you know what changes were made you decided it was best to accuse of of hiding behind PMs and not protecting or defending our instructor and company.

    Attacks like this make us regret offering free classes to help fight SB221, and is the reason very few gun stores participate in gun communities as it is a no win situation. Unfortunately this is our first post and based on the experience probably our last post.


    On a personal note, it has been mistakenly mentioned on this site in different threads that I am the owner of Guns and Ammo Garage which I am NOT, I am the General Manager and a proponent of OC. I was at the first OC trash pickup in front of NLVPD, OC in the DMV, OC'd in the Summerlin Costco for 2 years before Eric Scott was shot, attended two LV Blvd carry events, OC almost everyday, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    I am shocked that Adam has admitted that he has read this thread, and has decidedly not acted on the following:
    • Taking ownership for the G&AG curriculum they hired the instructor to teach!
    • Watching his instructor being unfairly targeted for teaching G&AG curriculum in this thread, and doing nothing!

    Until G&AG stands behind (owns) the training material they consciously put their logo on, how can one expect they will stand behind anything else that bears their logo?

    I want to reiterate, the instructor was NOT giving opinions, She was teaching the curriculum from the G&AG book and slideshow, both of which were adorned with the G&AG logo

    P.S. All future PM's I receive from G&AG will get posted to the appropriate thread. unless they are of a personal nature not an "open to the public" nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GunsandAmmoGarage View Post
    I am honestly shocked that you only gave me 13 hours (of which only 2 of were business hours) from your response to my PM at 11:08pm on 7/28 to your post attacking me at 12:14pm on 7/29.

    I could have posted a knee jerk reactionary response blindly defending our company, instructor and curriculum as soon as I saw this thread but I didn't. Instead I took the time to register on this site using our company name and PM you asking for clarification to your comments so that i could look into your concerns and address them properly.

    Even without your response to my PM I took steps on Sunday morning (only hours after first seeing this thread) to meet with our lead instructor, go over our curriculum, and discuss your concerns and the emails you have been exchanging with her since you took our class. We then made some immediate changes to our curriculum regarding OC, made a list of things to research and update as needed, and schedule a meeting to review our entire curriculum for any additional changes or improvements.

    So in less then 36 hours, including a weekend day, between when I discovered the thread at 7am on 7/28 and this post ~7pm on 7/29 I was able to address and resolve your concerns. But instead of allowing me a reasonable amount of time to respond and let you know what changes were made you decided it was best to accuse of of hiding behind PMs and not protecting or defending our instructor and company.

    Attacks like this make us regret offering free classes to help fight SB221, and is the reason very few gun stores participate in gun communities as it is a no win situation. Unfortunately this is our first post and based on the experience probably our last post.


    On a personal note, it has been mistakenly mentioned on this site in different threads that I am the owner of Guns and Ammo Garage which I am NOT, I am the General Manager and a proponent of OC. I was at the first OC trash pickup in front of NLVPD, OC in the DMV, OC'd in the Summerlin Costco for 2 years before Eric Scott was shot, attended two LV Blvd carry events, OC almost everyday, and so on.
    Help a guy with his business and he gives you sour grapes! well that speaks for itself.

    I remember when I started on this forum, I was criticized for lack of grammar, spelling, not utilizing paragraphs etc. Sometimes the guys were harsh. I thanked them got better and moved on. At leastthe G&AG instructor was appreciative.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunrunner1911 View Post
    ...Just like many other people. We all work mostly for money. It's nice to be noble and pass on information but it boils down to being able to pay the bills. Most people will get into something because of the monetary incentive. Why does MAC still wrench on AC units? ....
    I will always schedule a CCW class for a student, even one who wants a private one-on-one. But unless I get 8 students for the class, I take a pay cut if it is summertime from not doing AC work all day. Oh well. I didn't get licensed to get rich! I love this stuff.

    I'm just glad to see someone acknowledge it!

    I did a two-person class today. It takes most of the day, but we finished with just enough time for me to change a blower motor in an attic. I made more money on the two hours I was in the attic than I did for the 8-hour CCW class. And I'll do it again. Okay, okay, the guys bought me a steak for lunch, so it wasn't all bad...
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-29-2013 at 11:11 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    I do the same thing all the time. I had planned to attend a rocket launch last weekend which was business as we were showing off the new company up there. Client calls for renewal from out of town that weekend on Monday. Seems easy but things were crazy with prep for the weekend. I made it happen. I work with my clients especially returning ones. The general "whats your price?" asshats not so much.
    It's interesting when you hear or read the comments on forums about the subject and those that post them when confronted fail to respond.

    "Bob Erwin is an A$$ he doesn't know his info" What do you want for free and if the community of gun owners cared they would actually pay for a real class from a real instructor. NRA credentials are a F'ing joke IMO. Especially when that's all they have.

    "They don't know the law on open carry. They made people feel like they shouldn't carry" It's a CONCEALED CARRY class. The fact that some of us address open carry and do it correctly is a bonus because while it's every persons right to carry there are those who SHOULDN'T either carry by choice or by law.

    With rights comes responsibilities. 1st A = say whatever you want but realize you can be sued for slander if applicable and you can't yell fire in a theater for the heck of it.

    2ndA yes you get to keep and bear arms but only so far as the fact you can be responsible enough to not kill anyone out of stupidity or carelessness or abuse it. If we are part of the Militia why are we not "well regulated"? We should be VERY well regulated.

    Either OC or CC but go to a professional instructor and seek real training so if you have to use it you might actually survive the encounter. If you pull it is only because you feel your life is in danger or under threat of death. Of course we all know this because we are not the norm we are the gun forum gurus. WE LOVE THIS $%^&. We live breath and eat guns. Guess what 90% ers don't. So most people won't care and the cheap box store instructors live on including one of the worst known ones right here at Scheels so when you run into one dont be surprised especially if you chose to put your A$$ in a seat in their classroom.

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