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Thread: Michigan preemption question

  1. #1
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    Michigan preemption question

    Is this sign:

    And this ordinance: (PDF)

    In violation of state preemption law? I was riding my bike down the Kochville rail trail the other day and ended up in the park. I noticed this sign so I beet feet out of there to be safe. I thought it was an unlawful ordinance, but didn't wanna chance it as the Sheriff's office has a sub station right there.

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    Last edited by packeagle; 07-17-2013 at 11:36 AM.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Yes, They can not ban firearms.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    What has been an effective way to deal with such matters? Should I send a letter to the Twp. Board?

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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    What has me concerned is the term permit in the ordinance. The ordinance seems to cover concealed carry. Could it be argued this refers to a purchase permit? Making the ordinance compliant with preemption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by packeagle View Post
    What has me concerned is the term permit in the ordinance. The ordinance seems to cover concealed carry. Could it be argued this refers to a purchase permit? Making the ordinance compliant with preemption.

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    A Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, and Transport would definitely qualify as a permit.

    The ordinance, however, does not allow for long guns, and as such is unenforceable in that regard.

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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    A Permit to Purchase, Carry, Possess, and Transport would definitely qualify as a permit.

    The ordinance, however, does not allow for long guns, and as such is unenforceable in that regard.
    Ok, if a permit to purchase qualifies I guess its a larger battle than I'm willing to undertake. The lawful carry of long guns is a hard sell to the uninformed.

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    Preempted.

    packeagle, I recommend at the very least sending a letter. You never know what may happen.

    If you need ideas for wording, see here for numerous examples on a very similar ordinance: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,2172.0.html

    Note, you may need a forum account to see the link.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    Preempted.

    packeagle, I recommend at the very least sending a letter. You never know what may happen.

    If you need ideas for wording, see here for numerous examples on a very similar ordinance: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,2172.0.html

    Note, you may need a forum account to see the link.
    You do need a free forum account to view that link -- but not this one: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,1947.0.html
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You do need a free forum account to view that link -- but not this one: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,1947.0.html
    Thanks, I sent a slightly modified version of the first letter. I hope I get a positive response.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i went around in circles with the city of st clair attorney and chief of police about this same issue when i lived up there. they basically told me that by "weapons" they were referring things other than firearms and that i could feel free to lawfully carry. i told them the sign was misleading, but they didn't care. so, until michigan passes some sort of punitive law you may be SOL on this. but hopefully your town does better.
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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    Its misleading to the public. After reading the ordinance I would have been covered with my CPL I don't generally OC. I do on occasion and fully support the right to do so. I knew it was not enforcable and had I been arrested I would have won my case. The sign caused me to second guess that, so I didn't stick around. I hope they follow through. I'm comited.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    you're covered, CPL or not, regardless of their silly ordinance
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    i went around in circles with the city of st clair attorney and chief of police about this same issue when i lived up there. they basically told me that by "weapons" they were referring things other than firearms and that i could feel free to lawfully carry. i told them the sign was misleading, but they didn't care. so, until michigan passes some sort of punitive law you may be SOL on this. but hopefully your town does better.
    They rarely show up on signs but usually definitions are in the ordinances.

    IME, some municipalities will tell to you screw off and won't care what you say, while others will amaze you with how fast they fix the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    i went around in circles with the city of st clair attorney and chief of police about this same issue when i lived up there. they basically told me that by "weapons" they were referring things other than firearms and that i could feel free to lawfully carry. i told them the sign was misleading, but they didn't care. so, until michigan passes some sort of punitive law you may be SOL on this. but hopefully your town does better.
    Which is silly, isn't it. So weapons would refer to other weapons, like say a Baseball Bat. But in the OP's picture it appears the sign is attached to a baseball diamond, so where does that leave us?

    Thus why these kind of declarations are silly. Why should I be prohibited from carrying a weapon? It's already illegal for me to USE the weapon (in an illegal manner) so why restrict it?
    Last edited by jeffrey-r; 07-18-2013 at 10:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by packeagle View Post
    Its misleading to the public. After reading the ordinance I would have been covered with my CPL I don't generally OC. I do on occasion and fully support the right to do so. I knew it was not enforcable and had I been arrested I would have won my case. The sign caused me to second guess that, so I didn't stick around. I hope they follow through. I'm comited.

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    They can NOT control firearm possession. Whether it's a long gun, handgun or if you have or do not have a CPL. A non CPL holder can OC there as well. And long gun OC is lawful too.

    This,if you have a CPL crap needs to stop.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post

    This,if you have a CPL crap needs to stop.
    You can only have that opinion because you have a CPL
    Last edited by Jared; 07-18-2013 at 11:35 AM.

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    They can NOT control firearm possession. Whether it's a long gun, handgun or if you have or do not have a CPL. A non CPL holder can OC there as well. And long gun OC is lawful too.

    This,if you have a CPL crap needs to stop.
    I have long beleived this to be a coordinated effort to keep the number of law-abiding citizens carrying to as few people as possible by authorities. In their minds far better to have under 400,000 people carrying (mostly) CONCEALED scattered across the state, than having potentially MILLIONS of eligible citizens carrying openly.
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    Lightbulb

    Speaking now as a resident of the great state of AZ: what the knuckle heads in the MI legislature fail to see is that if they did pass constitutional carry like AZ did in 2010, they would basically get their way - that is, the vast majority of people 99%+ will choose to conceal carry. I have been here a year & I can count the number of OCers (other than myself & family) in the greater metro Phoenix area I have seen on one hand. Yes I have travelled the area quite a bit.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-18-2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: bold
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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    As to the CPL crap, Its the system we're dealt at the moment. We get a CPL so we can OC in more places. We get a CPL so we can more conveniently drive to the store to OC. Constitutional carry would be nice, but its a pipe dream in this political climate. I'd be more concerned in keeping the Self Defence Act (no duty to retreat) than gaining constitutional CCW. Heck, personally I'd rather get rid of mandatory pistol registration

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    Last edited by packeagle; 07-18-2013 at 12:01 PM.

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by packeagle View Post
    As to the CPL crap, Its the system we're dealt at the moment. We get a CPL so we can OC in more places. We get a CPL so we can more conveniently drive to the store to OC. Constitutional carry would be nice, but its a pipe dream in this political climate. I'd be more concerned in keeping the Self Defence Act (no duty to retreat) than gaining constitutional CCW. Heck, personally I'd rather get rid of mandatory pistol registration

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    No offense meant - This is exactly why things will not change there! The pi$$ ants in Lansing need to be made to remember that they work for you, (the people) & not the other way around. The only thing holding back the people of MI, is the people of MI...
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    Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I have long beleived this to be a coordinated effort to keep the number of law-abiding citizens carrying to as few people as possible by authorities. In their minds far better to have under 400,000 people carrying (mostly) CONCEALED scattered across the state, than having potentially MILLIONS of eligible citizens carrying openly.
    I think the VAST majority if Americans (over 90%) have ZERO interest in carrying a gun in their daily life.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I think the VAST majority if Americans (over 90%) have ZERO interest in carrying a gun in their daily life.
    I agree, but I do believe there a schemes to keep the number of people carrying down. Reference Illinois and I want to say the state of Maryland had a case where someone had a carry permit (may issue) and we he went to renew he was denied. Nothing had changed in his life and he had not committed any crimes, but their aim was to keep the number of permits issued down.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

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  23. #23
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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I think the VAST majority if Americans (over 90%) have ZERO interest in carrying a gun in their daily life.
    Could be right? So by that # we should have 30+ Million US citizens carrying legally, correct? Where are they? How come we never hear from them in the many attacks on gun rights/civil rights? My point we get the government we deserve. Sit on couch & biotch about things, guess what? Nothing will change. (Not directed at posters here).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Could be right? So by that # we should have 30+ Million US citizens carrying legally, correct?
    That's not what was said. 10% could have an "interest", while far less could have enough interest to carry, let alone open carry.

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    Re: Michigan preemption question

    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    That's not what was said. 10% could have an "interest", while far less could have enough interest to carry, let alone open carry.
    You did see the COULD BE RIGHT @ the front of my post, right? We all know it's far less, sadly, this is why politicians really can care less about us few in numbers. "We" are bug guts on their "teeny tiny" mental windshield's as they fly down the highway of right's be damned. :what:
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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