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Thread: Stopped at Walmart in Springfield - West Bypass and Sunshine

  1. #1
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    Stopped at Walmart in Springfield - West Bypass and Sunshine

    So I was open carrying (like I occasionally do, especially during the summer months) and I was purchasing a fairly large ticket item in the home improvement section of Walmart. As I walked by the paint counter, a gentleman who resembled Wilford Brimley (not being derogatory, just a description) stopped me and asked if I was a police officer. I am not, so I answer the same at which time he stated, "well we do not allow carrying of firearms inside the store as you should have seen on the doors as you walked in."

    I said, "ok" and walked to check out the front doors. Of course the front doors(or any of the doors for that matter) had no such signage (as none of the WalMart stores do in Springfield), so I returned to the paint counter to discuss this with the gentleman.

    I said, "I do not see any such signage on your front door". He then asked me if I had a concealed carry permit, I replied that Springfield did not require a permit to carry openly. He then said, "well, we recently replaced the doors up front, so if we left off that signage, that is our fault, but the other doors have that posted". "I have 35 years of experience as a police officer, so..."

    I replied that I looked at all the doors and saw no such signage and would be interested for him to show it to me.

    He said, "Well, I certainly can, but let's have a talk with a member of management.". I replied that I didn't want to cause a stir, just want to shop and get my purchase and leave.

    He said, "No, you need to speak to a member of management". It was quite a bit like he was trying to detain me.

    I replied, "that is fine, I am going to checkout and will meet you up front."

    He didn't seem to happy that I was not going to go with him, but said ok.

    I checked out and started walking to where he was talking with a couple of other employee's that I assumed were members of management.

    As I was walking toward them, I saw the other two employee's shaking their head and they both walked off. He started walking off too, but I stopped him and said, "When do I speak with them?"

    He just replied, "have a good day sir".

    and I did!

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    Regular Member JEStucker's Avatar
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    Some people...

    My guess is management corrected his behavior.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    I would have chearfully talked to the store manager about the rude employee that was harassing customers. I would also ask that he be reprimanded and/or fired for harassment. I would also write everyones names and job down so as to write a letter to the wallmart gods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    I would have chearfully talked to the store manager about the rude employee that was harassing customers. I would also ask that he be reprimanded and/or fired for harassment. I would also write everyones names and job down so as to write a letter to the wallmart gods.
    +1

    Just so we're clear for new readers, hanging around arguing or proving a point can be dangerous. If you're told by an employee that you need to leave, remaining may be considered trespassing. The law does not look lightly on trespassing. Although not a felony, its not a minor offense, either.

    If you want to hang around and argue, prove a point, etc., that's your call. Just understand the risks.


    Separately, I wouldn't write a letter to the WalMart gods unless unavoidable and necessary. WalMart's lawyers could change their mind at any time, and OC in a WalMart could become unwanted. No sense poking a bear that size.

    For myself, the instant I'm asked to leave, I'm going. With a cheerful goodbye. By taking the high road and recognizing their property rights when they wouldn't recognize my self-defense rights, I've already won the argument before I get to the door. In a big store situation, I might invite the ejector to walk with me to the door, and remonstrate with him on the way.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC
    As I walked by the paint counter...
    "I have 35 years of experience as a police officer, so..."
    Wow. Pension plan must have taken a hit if he has to work WM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    For myself, the instant I'm asked to leave, I'm going.
    ... I might invite the ejector to walk with me to the door, and remonstrate with him on the way.
    Or ask him to walk with you to the front of the store on your way out, to stop by customer service & introduce the manager to the employee who just cost the store a sale.
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    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC View Post
    So I was open carrying (like I occasionally do, especially during the summer months) and I was purchasing a fairly large ticket item in the home improvement section of Walmart. As I walked by the paint counter, a gentleman who resembled Wilford Brimley (not being derogatory, just a description) stopped me and asked if I was a police officer. I am not, so I answer the same at which time he stated, "well we do not allow carrying of firearms inside the store as you should have seen on the doors as you walked in."

    I said, "ok" and walked to check out the front doors. Of course the front doors(or any of the doors for that matter) had no such signage (as none of the WalMart stores do in Springfield), so I returned to the paint counter to discuss this with the gentleman.

    I said, "I do not see any such signage on your front door". He then asked me if I had a concealed carry permit, I replied that Springfield did not require a permit to carry openly. He then said, "well, we recently replaced the doors up front, so if we left off that signage, that is our fault, but the other doors have that posted". "I have 35 years of experience as a police officer, so..."

    I replied that I looked at all the doors and saw no such signage and would be interested for him to show it to me.

    He said, "Well, I certainly can, but let's have a talk with a member of management.". I replied that I didn't want to cause a stir, just want to shop and get my purchase and leave.

    He said, "No, you need to speak to a member of management". It was quite a bit like he was trying to detain me.

    I replied, "that is fine, I am going to checkout and will meet you up front."

    He didn't seem to happy that I was not going to go with him, but said ok.

    I checked out and started walking to where he was talking with a couple of other employee's that I assumed were members of management.

    As I was walking toward them, I saw the other two employee's shaking their head and they both walked off. He started walking off too, but I stopped him and said, "When do I speak with them?"

    He just replied, "have a good day sir".

    and I did!
    I would have gotten his name and reported him to corporate. 35 year cop and can't get use to not having his jackboots anymore!

    Walmart Corporate Office Headquarters in the USA:
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    Corporate Phone Number: 1-800-925-6278 or 1-479-273-4000
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    Corporate Email: info@wal-mart.com
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    See more at: http://www.corporateofficeheadquarte....REfcyoyA.dpuf
    Last edited by F350; 07-17-2013 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    +1

    Just so we're clear for new readers, hanging around arguing or proving a point can be dangerous. If you're told by an employee that you need to leave, remaining may be considered trespassing. The law does not look lightly on trespassing. Although not a felony, its not a minor offense, either.

    If you want to hang around and argue, prove a point, etc., that's your call. Just understand the risks.
    Yup (as the law is today) .... in this case the OP never said that they asked him leave though ... just said he should not have brought the gun in .. which is different.

    I fully expect people to leave my property or stay off of it when asked....of course, its a private dwelling & land surrounding it, not a commercial venture. I think that the law should be that when you INVITE someone onto your land, then saying that your 2nd amendment rights can be abridged is a no-no. I think that the law will come around on this point.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Technically, the OP was not asked to leave, but cautioned they he could not leave. You can't be trespassed if they will not let you exit the property. I wonder how close to a unlawful detention that WM employee came? Considering that the OP was almost "detained" I would have asked to speak to management with the WM employee in close proximity.

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    To the OP: I wouldn't write a letter to corporate - if anything I'd talk to the local manager - but IMHO you had your chance to do that at the time.

    I think we have to be careful about running to the principal over every indiscretion.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    +1

    Just so we're clear for new readers, hanging around arguing or proving a point can be dangerous. If you're told by an employee that you need to leave, remaining may be considered trespassing. The law does not look lightly on trespassing. Although not a felony, its not a minor offense, either.

    If you want to hang around and argue, prove a point, etc., that's your call. Just understand the risks.


    Separately, I wouldn't write a letter to the WalMart gods unless unavoidable and necessary. WalMart's lawyers could change their mind at any time, and OC in a WalMart could become unwanted. No sense poking a bear that size.

    For myself, the instant I'm asked to leave, I'm going. With a cheerful goodbye. By taking the high road and recognizing their property rights when they wouldn't recognize my self-defense rights, I've already won the argument before I get to the door. In a big store situation, I might invite the ejector to walk with me to the door, and remonstrate with him on the way.
    I agree about the trespass, but you could secure your weapon and then come back and talk to the manager.

    I disagree with poking the bear so to speak, staying silent only empowers the employee and the store. You cheerfully leave and don't ever return but the next guy will be harrassed by the now (I MUST BE RIGHT) employee that ejected you. Would you submit to the goverment coming in and searching your house? I think not.

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    I would go back to this Wall-Mart OC to see if this same idiot was working to see what his reaction would be this time. Wall-Mart follows state and local law and Springfield allows OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    I agree about the trespass, but you could secure your weapon and then come back and talk to the manager.

    I disagree with poking the bear so to speak, staying silent only empowers the employee and the store. You cheerfully leave and don't ever return but the next guy will be harrassed by the now (I MUST BE RIGHT) employee that ejected you. Would you submit to the goverment coming in and searching your house? I think not.


    The weapon was secure on his persons.

    The government coming in and searching your house? What does that have to do with somebody legally shopping at walmart?
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    The weapon was secure on his persons.

    The government coming in and searching your house? What does that have to do with somebody legally shopping at walmart?
    It goes to Citizens argument that you should just leave and not polk the bear. I got out of his argument that we should never challage a uniformed employee or buisness about our rights as outlined in the US Constitution. If the goverment came into your home you would raise holy hell, if some uniformed anti try's to tell you you have no 2a rights then SAY SOMETHING don't just roll over and give up your 2A rights.

    As for the weapon being secured you need to understand the context of it as in TRESSPASS. Citizen said if you stand in the store after an employee asked you to leave then leave and secure it and come back and talk to the manager as not to be in violation of tresspass. If you stay and argue armed after being asked to leave and they call the cops you can be charged with tresspass.

    Do you get it or should I type slower?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    +1

    Just so we're clear for new readers, hanging around arguing or proving a point can be dangerous. If you're told by an employee that you need to leave, remaining may be considered trespassing. The law does not look lightly on trespassing. Although not a felony, its not a minor offense, either.

    If you want to hang around and argue, prove a point, etc., that's your call. Just understand the risks.
    That is a good point and one that I follow for certain. In this instance the employee just said that I should observe the signs on the front door (of course which I did not since they were non-existent).

    If I would have spoken to the management, I would have let a few more things be known, but since apparently they were a bit more knowledgeable than this employee, so having a discussion with them would probably not change anything, and might have put me in a position of seeming argumentative, which I did not want to do.
    Last edited by HYRYSC; 07-18-2013 at 05:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    It goes to Citizens argument that you should just leave and not polk the bear. I got out of his argument that we should never challage a uniformed employee or buisness about our rights as outlined in the US Constitution. If the goverment came into your home you would raise holy hell, if some uniformed anti try's to tell you you have no 2a rights then SAY SOMETHING don't just roll over and give up your 2A rights.

    As for the weapon being secured you need to understand the context of it as in TRESSPASS. Citizen said if you stand in the store after an employee asked you to leave then leave and secure it and come back and talk to the manager as not to be in violation of tresspass. If you stay and argue armed after being asked to leave and they call the cops you can be charged with tresspass.

    Do you get it or should I type slower?
    Your home is your personal property. Wal-mart is not an employees personal property. I cannot seem to understand the analogy but I may not be looking at it correctly.

    You can type slower. I will still read it at the same speed.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    As an exercise in careful reading:

    The OP did not say in his original post that the 'Brimley' guy was an employee.
    a gentleman who resembled Wilford Brimley (not being derogatory, just a description) stopped me
    Be that as it may (though most replies took that as a given), HOW did he stop you? Did he grab your arm, grab the cart, stand in front of you blocking your progress? That's unlawful detainment. 'Sir, excuse me, but can I talk to you for a minute?' is another matter and more proper and allows you to say 'No, I'm busy'.

    If he touched you or grabbed you, that's assault. If he -prevented- you from leaving that's unlawful detainment under color of authority. All he can do is say (the above), plus 'I'm going to have to ask you to (blah, blah)' (leave the store, cover it up, etc.).

    If he was a badged or uniformed employee he can ask you to leave, though not with proper authority from HIS side, but with enough force of law to support a trespassing charge should you decline. Even coming back after you 'secured' (how?) your firearm by hiding it in the bushes could cause a trespassing charge. Why? The employee might have taken a dislike and he tells the cops you were asked to leave and not come back. Risky on your part to take the word of a (now proven) LIAR.

    Now the important part. DID YOU HAVE YOUR RECORDER running? If so, you have a case for several actions. If not, shame on you and you're no longer worth my time (sorry) because you are OC-ing in a non-careless, but too cavalier fashion to be posting a 'whinge' on OCDO. You should know better than to ask about signage (and get some put up), or argue, or fail to have your recorder running. Do all that and next time feel free to post a query, and get action.

    All you did here is whine and vent. What's the point?

    Good day and good luck.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 07-18-2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    As an exercise in careful reading:

    The OP did not say in his original post that the 'Brimley' guy was an employee.


    Be that as it may (though most replies took that as a given), HOW did he stop you? Did he grab your arm, grab the cart, stand in front of you blocking your progress? That's unlawful detainment. 'Sir, excuse me, but can I talk to you for a minute?' is another matter and more proper and allows you to say 'No, I'm busy'.

    If he touched you or grabbed you, that's assault. If he -prevented- you from leaving that's unlawful detainment under color of authority. All he can do is say (the above), plus 'I'm going to have to ask you to (blah, blah)' (leave the store, cover it up, etc.).

    If he was a badged or uniformed employee he can ask you to leave, though not with proper authority from HIS side, but with enough force of law to support a trespassing charge should you decline. Even coming back after you 'secured' (how?) your firearm by hiding it in the bushes could cause a trespassing charge. Why? The employee might have taken a dislike and he tells the cops you were asked to leave and not come back. Risky on your part to take the word of a (now proven) LIAR.

    Now the important part. DID YOU HAVE YOUR RECORDER running? If so, you have a case for several actions. If not, shame on you and you're no longer worth my time (sorry) because you are OC-ing in a non-careless, but too cavalier fashion to be posting a 'whinge' on OCDO. You should know better than to ask about signage (and get some put up), or argue, or fail to have your recorder running. Do all that and next time feel free to post a query, and get action.

    All you did here is whine and vent. What's the point?

    Good day and good luck.
    Hey, good job! If you were looking to appear like a major dick, then you succeeded. If you wanted to appear as if you had anything relevant to the issue, then you failed miserably.

    I had no point (which was quite similar to your worthless drivel above). I simply shared an experience that I had. I do not have my recorder running for a non-leo situation. If you wish to record your every move once you step outside your domicile, fine, but I prefer to just live my life and occasionally post some of my experiences on various internet sites where idiots like you can opine.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    Your home is your personal property. Wal-mart is not an employees personal property. I cannot seem to understand the analogy but I may not be looking at it correctly.

    You can type slower. I will still read it at the same speed.
    As an employee of wallmart he/she is acting as their agent; if you don't leave when asked you could be charged with trespass......

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    As an employee of wallmart he/she is acting as their agent; if you don't leave when asked you could be charged with trespass......
    Yes I understand that. Apparently I was unable to read correctly.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC View Post
    Hey, good job! If you were looking to appear like a major dick, then you succeeded. If you wanted to appear as if you had anything relevant to the issue, then you failed miserably.

    I had no point (which was quite similar to your worthless drivel above). I simply shared an experience that I had. I do not have my recorder running for a non-leo situation. If you wish to record your every move once you step outside your domicile, fine, but I prefer to just live my life and occasionally post some of my experiences on various internet sites where idiots like you can opine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    As an employee of wallmart he/she is acting as their agent; if you don't leave when asked you could be charged with trespass......

    I was NOT asked to leave, I was asked to abide by the posted signage on their front doors which I did fully!

  22. #22
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC View Post
    I was NOT asked to leave, I was asked to abide by the posted signage on their front doors which I did fully!
    My comment wasn't directed to you, another poster and myself had a communication problem.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC View Post
    Hey, good job! If you were looking to appear like a major dick, then you succeeded. If you wanted to appear as if you had anything relevant to the issue, then you failed miserably.

    I had no point (which was quite similar to your worthless drivel above). I simply shared an experience that I had. I do not have my recorder running for a non-leo situation. If you wish to record your every move once you step outside your domicile, fine, but I prefer to just live my life and occasionally post some of my experiences on various internet sites where idiots like you can opine.
    Suggest you lock your gun in a safe and take an anger management class, cowboy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Suggest you lock your gun in a safe and take an anger management class, cowboy.
    LOL. I will take your suggestion with as much weight as I the rest of your post...zero.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYRYSC View Post
    LOL. I will take your suggestion with as much weight as I the rest of your post...zero.
    Weighty or not, you just can't seem to understand that whinging and venting here as HUNDREDS of others have done, not following the recommendations to 'not talk about signs' and 'run your recorder constantly from the time you leave the house' gives your post any merit.

    Why not untwist your undies and take the advice posted here MANY TIMES. OC and run your recorder, because YOU think you have the presence of mind to ONLY TURN IT ON when a LEO interacts with you does not make that prudent or even possible. You'll FORGET. Look it up.

    HTH.

    Oh, and if you get so angry at a forum post, you must be a real dickens out in the REAL WORLD. Have a nice day and take your meds.

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