Changing From Non Resident to Resident CHP

t11spanner · Jul 18, 2013

Morning Everyone!

A young man in my center just moved from Maryland to Virginia. Took me several years to convince him!!

He has a Va. Non-resident permit, and now of course wants to "trade up" (my words).

I am writing this second hand, so please do not flame....

He went into the Stafford Clerk of Court and was told that the permit he has was NEVER issued by the state, they have never heard of Non Resident and that he needs to complete the whole process including fees again.

Are they correct?

The permit looks very similar to my Fairfax County Permit, State Seal on it, with the exception that VSP put his picture on the back.

I searched for a process and either am looking in the wrong place or the Court was right.

Any thoughts out there?

Thanks!

Carl

peter nap · Jul 18, 2013

Citizens arrest !
Citizens Arrest !

Violation of rule 8

Citizens Statement
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?115781-Can-officer-take-your-firearm
And, I know you know the value of that rule. You've been here for ages. Don't try to tell me you don't fully understand the value of that rule. And, don't try that lately business. You know I've hammered that rule for years. Furthermore, I know you know this would be a better forum if everybody followed that rule religiously every time.

For other readers who weren't around in the early days, here are some of the reasons for it, in no particular order:

(8) KEEP IT ON-TOPIC: All gun rights discussions not directly related to open carry should take place in the "General Discussions" forum and topics that are not related to gun rights at all should take place in "The Lounge". Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focused.

Esanders2008 · Jul 18, 2013

With apologies to all involved, as I am not looking for a fight, but where else can we find a forum to discuss such things, and still have the strong body of knowledge found on the VA portion of the OCDO forum. I have looked on places like defensive carry, and I just don't get the feel like I do here.

peter nap · Jul 18, 2013

Esanders2008 said:
With apologies to all involved, as I am not looking for a fight, but where else can we find a forum to discuss such things, and still have the strong body of knowledge found on the VA portion of the OCDO forum. I have looked on places like defensive carry, and I just don't get the feel like I do here.

Don't know?

PS
Don't take this too seriously. :lol::lol:

Esanders2008 · Jul 18, 2013

peter nap said:
Don't know?

PS
Don't take this too seriously. !

Gotcha!

peter nap · Jul 18, 2013

Carl...since you aren't families with the particular chain I'm rattling, and I'm not a permit person....I'll try to answer your question.

The Clerk is wrong and right. It was issued by the state but not by the Circuit Court of his residence.
He needs to apply as a resident. I know no way of trading up.

grylnsmn · Jul 18, 2013

peter nap said:
Carl...since you aren't families with the particular chain I'm rattling, and I'm not a permit person....I'll try to answer your question.

The Clerk is wrong and right. It was issued by the state but not by the Circuit Court of his residence.
He needs to apply as a resident. I know no way of trading up.

I'm not so sure of that.

18.2-308.010 states:

A. 1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

As non-resident permits are specifically provided for in 18.2-308.06, someone who holds a non-resident permit and moves to Virginia would be a person "who previously have held a concealed handgun permit". 18.2-308.010 makes no distinction between resident or non-resident permits.

If his permit is still valid, then there is no need for him to renew until it is ready to expire, any more than when you move within the state you have to update your permit information. When it is time to renew, he can do so by mail, but has to do it through his local circuit court. He also does not need to resubmit proof of competency.

peter nap · Jul 18, 2013

grylnsmn said:
I'm not so sure of that.

18.2-308.010 states:As non-resident permits are specifically provided for in 18.2-308.06, someone who holds a non-resident permit and moves to Virginia would be a person "who previously have held a concealed handgun permit". 18.2-308.010 makes no distinction between resident or non-resident permits.

If his permit is still valid, then there is no need for him to renew until it is ready to expire, any more than when you move within the state you have to update your permit information. When it is time to renew, he can do so by mail, but has to do it through his local circuit court. He also does not need to resubmit proof of competency.

You may be right but I don't think so. He certainly doesn't have to take a class but I'm betting he'll have to submit a new permit application.

In any event, judging from the Clerks attitude...it will almost certainly be easier to submit a new application well before his non resident permit expires, than to try to argue with them. This is another of those cases that I doubt the Circuit Court will hear because no application has been submitted and denied.

Mike · Jul 18, 2013

The non-resident permit is still good to go - no need to update address. I would wait till you get close to expiration and then apply for a new permit from the Circuit Court using the old permit as prooff of training.

ProShooter · Jul 18, 2013

Mike said:
The non-resident permit is still good to go - no need to update address. I would wait till you get close to expiration and then apply for a new permit from the Circuit Court using the old permit as proof of training.

I would suggest the opposite, because with a NR permit, he is missing out on states that he would be able to carry in if he had a resident permit. (Like Pa., Fl, SC)

TFred · Jul 18, 2013

This may be somewhat similar to a thread that came up a couple years ago. A resident of a county that did not require fingerprinting happened to move to a city that did, right as their permit was expiring. The city clerk tried to make them supply fingerprints for the renewal. I believe they eventually did get the renewal without the fingerprinting, if I recall correctly, and the clerk was retiring on short order after that as well.

It would seem to me the burden here is to show how/why a non-resident permit does not satisfy the requirement for renewal, which is stated as: "previously have held a concealed handgun permit"

That requirement does not seem confusing in the least. What possible case can one make that a non-resident permit is not a concealed handgun permit?

TFred

Wolf_shadow · Jul 18, 2013

t11spanner said:
Morning Everyone!

A young man in my center just moved from Maryland to Virginia. Took me several years to convince him!!

He has a Va. Non-resident permit, and now of course wants to "trade up" (my words).

I am writing this second hand, so please do not flame....

He went into the Stafford Clerk of Court and was told that the permit he has was NEVER issued by the state, they have never heard of Non Resident and that he needs to complete the whole process including fees again.

Are they correct?

The permit looks very similar to my Fairfax County Permit, State Seal on it, with the exception that VSP put his picture on the back.

I searched for a process and either am looking in the wrong place or the Court was right.

Any thoughts out there?

Thanks!

Carl

Sounds to me the Stafford Clerk needs some education. They've never heard of a Non Resident Permit? Have they ever heard of the VA Concealed Carry Code, or is it just how they were told to do it. I would say apply as a Change of Address, as that is what he is doing. The Clerk needs to learn the code, not fall back on I never heard of a Non Resident Permit! IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE! What would the judge saw if I told him I didn't know I needed a CHP. :banghead:

Come on no one else caught that?

2a4all · Jul 18, 2013

peter nap said:
You may be right but I don't think so. He certainly doesn't have to take a class but I'm betting he'll have to submit a new permit application.

In any event, judging from the Clerks attitude...it will almost certainly be easier to submit a new application well before his non resident permit expires, than to try to argue with them. This is another of those cases that I doubt the Circuit Court will hear because no application has been submitted and denied.

I tend to agree.

As he is now a resident, he cannot renew (as in get another of what he already has) his NR permit. However, the NR permit should certainly suffice for competency.

I guess a better question would be: Since he's now a resident, is the NR permit even valid? There might be two conditions for a NR permit to remain valid: 1) It hasn't expired; and 2) The holder remains a non-resident. The residency requirement for a permit is immediate; there is no waiting period. This is a bit different than simply moving from one Virginia Court District to another.

TFred · Jul 18, 2013

2a4all said:
I tend to agree.

As he is now a resident, he cannot renew (as in get another of what he already has) his NR permit. However, the NR permit should certainly suffice for competency.

I guess a better question would be: Since he's now a resident, is the NR permit even valid? There might be two conditions for a NR permit to remain valid: 1) It hasn't expired; and 2) The holder remains a non-resident. The residency requirement for a permit is immediate; there is no waiting period. This is a bit different than simply moving from one Virginia Court District to another.

Please show me in the code where it says that a non-resident permit is no longer valid if the person moves into Virginia.

If it ain't illegal... it's legal.

TFred

Wolf_shadow · Jul 18, 2013

peter nap said:
You may be right but I don't think so. He certainly doesn't have to take a class but I'm betting he'll have to submit a new permit application.

In any event, judging from the Clerks attitude...it will almost certainly be easier to submit a new application well before his non resident permit expires, than to try to argue with them. This is another of those cases that I doubt the Circuit Court will hear because no application has been submitted and denied.

2a4all said:
I tend to agree.

As he is now a resident, he cannot renew (as in get another of what he already has) his NR permit. However, the NR permit should certainly suffice for competency.

I guess a better question would be: Since he's now a resident, is the NR permit even valid? There might be two conditions for a NR permit to remain valid: 1) It hasn't expired; and 2) The holder remains a non-resident. The residency requirement for a permit is immediate; there is no waiting period. This is a bit different than simply moving from one Virginia Court District to another.

Just because his permit was issued by the VSP instead of a local CoC it is still a VA CHP. Since nothing in the law says a Non Resident CHP becomes invalid when you move to VA it is still a valid CHP. Remember no law says OC is illegal therefore it is legal. Although IANAL.

skidmark · Jul 18, 2013

TFred said:
Please show me in the code where it says that a non-resident permit is no longer valid if the person moves into Virginia.

If it ain't illegal... it's legal.

TFred

Because the Non-Res permit was issued to a person who was not a resident of the Commonwealth of Virginia. By several actions this person has now become a resident of Virginia. Their Non-Res permit is not valid because it only gives privileges to non-residents. He's not a non-resident no more.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

Change of Address

Permit holders are requested to notify the Virginia State Police, Firearms Transaction Center (FTC) of changes of address. Notification may be made in writing to the FTC at P.O. Box 85141, Richmond, VA, 23285-5141 or on-line at nonrespermit@vsp.virginia.gov, and must include the permit file number or a photocopy of the permit. A change of address card will be provided to the permit holder, to be retained with the original permit.

I read that as applyinng to non-residents who change addresses while still remaining non-residents.

I'll bet they will use the same criteria that DMV uses requiring you to get a VA DL if you move to VA.

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/drivers/#applying.asp

If you are from out-of-state and posses a valid driver's license, DMV may exchange your out-of-state driver's license for a Virginia driver's license if you meet the identity, legal presence, residency, and social security requirements and Virginia's driver education requirements, if applicable

Or, of course tjhe Non-Res permit holdrr could submit a change of address notification and wait to see what happens.

stay safe.

TFred · Jul 18, 2013

skidmark said:
Because the Non-Res permit was issued to a person who was not a resident of the Commonwealth of Virginia. By several actions this person has now become a resident of Virginia. Their Non-Res permit is not valid because it only gives privileges to non-residents. He's not a non-resident no more.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm

I read that as applyinng to non-residents who change addresses while still remaining non-residents.

I'll bet they will use the same criteria that DMV uses requiring you to get a VA DL if you move to VA.

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/drivers/#applying.asp

Or, of course tjhe Non-Res permit holdrr could submit a change of address notification and wait to see what happens.

stay safe.

Well, other than the code just doesn't say that your permit is suddenly invalid if you move into Virginia, the fault with your DMV analogy is that Virginia does not issue non-resident drivers licenses, at least not that I know of!

Not a valid comparison, because what you are comparing to does not exist.

TFred

TFred · Jul 18, 2013

Additional thoughts...

In order for a non-resident permit to suddenly become invalid when the holder moves into the state, the state would have to not recognize their own permit. I hate to keep beating the drum, but there is no provision in the code for this.

The only reason they do non-resident permits differently (State police vs local courts) is that a non-resident doesn't have a local court in Virginia. I'd just as soon see them all done in Richmond, as a plastic card with a photo. Look at how many local problems would go away, and with shall issue, there is no role for the local good-old-boy network any longer anyway.

TFred

peter nap · Jul 18, 2013

TFred said:
Additional thoughts...

In order for a non-resident permit to suddenly become invalid when the holder moves into the state, the state would have to not recognize their own permit. I hate to keep beating the drum, but there is no provision in the code for this.

The only reason they do non-resident permits differently (State police vs local courts) is that a non-resident doesn't have a local court in Virginia. I'd just as soon see them all done in Richmond, as a plastic card with a photo. Look at how many local problems would go away, and with shall issue, there is no role for the local good-old-boy network any longer anyway.

TFred

If they have to issue CHP's, it should be by the State Police. The code should be amended to have issued a permit when one passes he instant background check. A receipt from the gun store would act as a temporary permit.

TFred · Jul 18, 2013

peter nap said:
If they have to issue CHP's, it should be by the State Police. The code should be amended to have issued a permit when one passes he instant background check. A receipt from the gun store would act as a temporary permit.

YES! I broached this idea about a year ago, when I realized that there was in fact very little difference between the purchase check and the CHP check. The more common the CHP is, the less special it is, the easier it will be to roll over to Constitutional Carry. If the first step is to make every legal gun owner a CHP holder, then there is no difference between that and Constitutional Carry, other than the silly piece of paper!

TFred

Changing From Non Resident to Resident CHP

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