Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31

Thread: Open Carry w/ Conceal Carry Permit Question.

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    15

    Open Carry w/ Conceal Carry Permit Question.

    Okay, So I have had my Conceal Carry Permit for quite a while, and have decided to start open carrying more often. So my question to you all is, since I have my Conceal Carry, can I open carry in my vehicle with the weapon loaded? I understand that it is illegal to carry loaded without my Conceal Carry in my vehicle, but can I carry open, loaded, since I have my permit?

    Thanks in Advance,
    Mav

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Carnation, Washington, USA
    Posts
    748
    Welcome to OCDO!

    You are good to go. As long as you have a valid CPL, you may carry loaded in your vehicle, OC or CC. Nothing in the State Laws requires you to conceal.

    Check out the stickied threads

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...out-Open-Carry

    and

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ights-Pamphlet

    for answers to many questions about OC in Washington State.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

  3. #3
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lacey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,991
    Welcome to OCDO! Yes, you can carry a loaded weapon any way you want in a vehicle with a CPL. I say vehicle because this applies to all forms of conveniences. Bus, train, motorcycle, and ferries.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    15
    Thanks for the fast replies! Most appreciated.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    I say vehicle because this applies to all forms of conveniences. Bus, train, motorcycle, and ferries.
    Don't forget the commonly missed, bicycle.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Don't forget the commonly missed, bicycle.
    A bicyce is exempt if you are using it for recerational purposes. See RCW 9.41.060 "Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.", paragraph (8).

    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;


    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

  7. #7
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Kitsap County
    Posts
    872
    Good to see you still posting slapmonkay! I hope all is well in Montana
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowski View Post
    A bicyce is exempt if you are using it for recerational purposes. See RCW 9.41.060 "Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.", paragraph (8).

    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;


    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060
    While there is an exemption for lawful outdoor recreational activity, the onus is on the individual demonstrate that they are in fact participating in the outdoor activity to claim the exception. I am not one to say for certain that a court or jury would agree that simply riding down the road on a bicycle is an outdoor recreational activity.

    The opinion from the AGO seems to believe in order to operate a bicycle you need to have a CPL, which is the recommendation I would give to others.

    AGO reply: http://sdrv.ms/1aV6wzX [PDF]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGO Reply
    The RCWs apply to vehicles, motorcycles, and bicycles. Carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or bicycle is the same as carrying a firearm in a vehicle. You will need a license to carry a concealed weapon.
    If you were to be heading to a recreational activity, such as fishing, on a bicycle then I would agree that the exception would clearly apply.

    Its better to be safe than sorry, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Good to see you still posting slapmonkay! I hope all is well in Montana
    Montana is doing well. I am going to be making a trip back in a month or so, ill be posting for a meetup.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    398

    Re: Open Carry w/ Conceal Carry Permit Question.

    Speaking of bikes. I just started getting back into riding mine this week. Went out the first day with my P-32 clipped onto my belt. I was about a mile down the road when I realized it was being covered by my shirt and my CPL was at home. Tucked my shirt in my shorts and made sure I rode OC the rest of the way.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

  10. #10
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Bremerton, Washington
    Posts
    593
    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    Speaking of bikes. I just started getting back into riding mine this week. Went out the first day with my P-32 clipped onto my belt. I was about a mile down the road when I realized it was being covered by my shirt and my CPL was at home. Tucked my shirt in my shorts and made sure I rode OC the rest of the way.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
    umm, unless it was unloaded and chamber was clear, you were still out of the box for loaded carry? Now I have to go see if the AGO is in any of the sticky threads...

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,138
    I was in Bloedel Donovan Park on a bicycle just the other day. Rode past two B'ham PD gentleman who definitely saw the weapon, but did not say a word or react in any way. The way it is supposed to be.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  12. #12
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
    Posts
    280
    It might be interesting to argue that the act of riding a bike is a outdoor activity in of its self.

    Ummmmmmmm

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthunter View Post
    It might be interesting to argue that the act of riding a bike is a outdoor activity in of its self.

    Ummmmmmmm
    It's a form of exercise, of course it is a outdoor activity. They really need to change the books to reflect that.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,138
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    They probably finally figured out that it just costs to much $$$$ to have the privilege to talk to you :-)
    I will talk to anyone. If you want to do that and bully me at the same time tho, it will cost you.

    As for the bike, my use was definitely a transportation thing. Then again, it can be anything I want it to be.....transport....exercise.....whatever.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  15. #15
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Don't forget the commonly missed, bicycle.
    Explain to me how I can be IN a motorcycle much less a bicycle.


    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050
    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.


    Note: IN is not ON and WITHIN is not UPON.
    Being ON a roof is not the same as being IN the building.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,202
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Explain to me how I can be IN a motorcycle much less a bicycle.


    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050
    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.


    Note: IN is not ON and WITHIN is not UPON.
    Being ON a roof is not the same as being IN the building.
    We have the same problem in Wis with the law change it says you can place a loaded long gun on a vehicle DNR says on is not in. In is not on. IMHO they are just screwing with the meanings to get their way hopefully we can get the law changed again to correct this wrong full thinking.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  17. #17
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavasaur View Post
    Okay, So I have had my Conceal Carry Permit for quite a while, and have decided to start open carrying more often. So my question to you all is, since I have my Conceal Carry, can I open carry in my vehicle with the weapon loaded? I understand that it is illegal to carry loaded without my Conceal Carry in my vehicle, but can I carry open, loaded, since I have my permit?

    Thanks in Advance,
    Mav
    The only ones you have to worry about are those morons that parrot the phrase "Concealed Means Concealed and if you have a permit to Conceal then that's the way you have to carry". My local "Gun Shop Owner" is one of those. A few cops have taken this line too.

    In reality the law doesn't require you to conceal and they are purely morons.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Explain to me how I can be IN a motorcycle much less a bicycle.


    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050
    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.


    Note: IN is not ON and WITHIN is not UPON.
    Being ON a roof is not the same as being IN the building.
    This has been discussed several times. I am in fact on your side, I personally would probably consider it a worthy cause to get case law on it. Most people might not, so I provide the information that the consensus believes and the 'safer' option.

    Here are a couple previous threads regarding that subject...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...39-Motorcycles

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-Motorcycles
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...and-motorcyles


    Additionally, here is a response from AG office. Take it with grain of salt.

    PDF: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...CAeacIuZ9ymRkQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Exerpt
    The RCWs apply to vehicles, motorcycles, and bicycles. Carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or
    bicycle is the same as carrying a firearm in a vehicle.
    You will need a license to carry a
    concealed weapon.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    996
    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    The only ones you have to worry about are those morons that parrot the phrase "Concealed Means Concealed and if you have a permit to Conceal then that's the way you have to carry". My local "Gun Shop Owner" is one of those. A few cops have taken this line too.

    In reality the law doesn't require you to conceal and they are purely morons.
    The perfect rebuttal is to point out that if that were true, having a driver's license would make walking illegal.

  20. #20
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    While there is an exemption for lawful outdoor recreational activity, the onus is on the individual demonstrate that they are in fact participating in the outdoor activity to claim the exception. I am not one to say for certain that a court or jury would agree that simply riding down the road on a bicycle is an outdoor recreational activity.

    The opinion from the AGO seems to believe in order to operate a bicycle you need to have a CPL, which is the recommendation I would give to others.

    AGO reply: http://sdrv.ms/1aV6wzX [PDF]



    If you were to be heading to a recreational activity, such as fishing, on a bicycle then I would agree that the exception would clearly apply.

    Its better to be safe than sorry, IMO.




    Montana is doing well. I am going to be making a trip back in a month or so, ill be posting for a meetup.
    Slapmonkey:

    There are a couple things wrong with this "AGO" opinion. The opinion is not from the AG, and the AG only answers questions from government officials, as he/she is the states attorney.

    The second thing is, this gal obviously does not know RCW 9.41 very well, and did not take the time to look anything up.

    Riding a bicycle IS an outdoor recreational activity, in and of itself...even if it is also a means of transport.

    If you want a real AG opinion, contact your state senator, or representative, and have them ask the AG. Secondly, AG opinions are not law, they are only an "Opinion" AG"O" just like this gals response is her "opinion".

    RCW 9.41.060 has many exemptions, she did not even bother to say, "unless you qualify for an exemption under RCW 9.41.060"..a very good indication of how deeply she looked into the question.

  21. #21
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavasaur View Post
    Okay, So I have had my Conceal Carry Permit for quite a while, and have decided to start open carrying more often. So my question to you all is, since I have my Conceal Carry, can I open carry in my vehicle with the weapon loaded? I understand that it is illegal to carry loaded without my Conceal Carry in my vehicle, but can I carry open, loaded, since I have my permit?

    Thanks in Advance,
    Mav
    Your CPL only allows you to conceal, it has no bearing on if you do or not. And yes, your CPL does override the prohibition to general loaded carry in a vehicle, at a time you cannot utilize an exemption from RCW 9.41.060

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Slapmonkey:

    There are a couple things wrong with this "AGO" opinion. The opinion is not from the AG, and the AG only answers questions from government officials, as he/she is the states attorney.

    The second thing is, this gal obviously does not know RCW 9.41 very well, and did not take the time to look anything up.
    I am aware of how official AGO's are procured, this not being an official AGO. This is simply correspondence with the AG office, that's not to mean that their opinion is irrelevant as this is the lawyer tasked to the firearms items for the AG.

    I was critical of their response and had followup phone calls with them as well, even though some people here didn't see the point. That can be followed here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-has-it-wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Riding a bicycle IS an outdoor recreational activity, in and of itself...even if it is also a means of transport.
    Definition of 'Recreation': a pastime, diversion, exercise, or other resource affording relaxation and enjoyment.

    At the very least its ambiguous, in my opinion. If a prosecutor could make the case that you are bicycling to work, like you do daily or able to setup some sort of other repetitive history, would one be able to say that your not actually exercising a recreational activity but just traveling and using the bicycle as a means of transport?

    Can I apply the same recreational activity exception to my motorcycle riding since I only do so for relaxation and enjoyment in the outdoors, I might be on a road but to me I am recreating just like someone on a bicycle.

    I don't necessarily believe that just because your on a bicycle that your automatically considered performing an outdoor recreation activity.

    I am not just trying to be argumentative.
    • A bicycle is defined as a vehicle in the RCW's.
    • The consensus of those here believe that the in/on language of RCW 9.41.050(2)(a) CPL requirement applies to a motorcycle. (thus I would claim the same applies on a bicycle)
    • Does riding a bicycle automatically mean that your performing an outdoor recreational activity. Even if your not doing it for relaxation or enjoyment but as a means to transport daily.
    • The outdoor recreational activity is an exception, the onus is on the individual to claim the exception.


    When giving advice, I would rather error on the side of caution. 99% of the time it may prove to be no issue or non-event. I sure don't want to tell someone they can go do something and they end up being the 1% with a LEO or prosecutor trying to push the limits and result in a test case.

    As always, if you want a real legal opinion then consult with a real attorney because I am just some yoke on the internet (in Montana no less!).
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 07-22-2013 at 06:47 PM. Reason: spelling
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    This has been discussed several times. I am in fact on your side, I personally would probably consider it a worthy cause to get case law on it. Most people might not, so I provide the information that the consensus believes and the 'safer' option.

    Here are a couple previous threads regarding that subject...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...39-Motorcycles

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-Motorcycles
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...and-motorcyles


    Additionally, here is a response from AG office. Take it with grain of salt.

    PDF: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...CAeacIuZ9ymRkQ
    "The RCWs apply to vehicles, motorcycles, and bicycles. Carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or
    bicycle is the same as carrying a firearm in a vehicle. You will need a license to carry a
    concealed weapon.
    "

    He did not say that all carry on a bike (both types) was by default concealed. Just that if you carry concealed then you need a CPL.

    That was not a rebuttal at all. Unless the AG has failed English lessons or is trying to deceive you by writing it the way it was written.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    RCW 46.04.071
    Bicycle.


    "Bicycle" means every device propelled solely by human power upon which a person or persons may ride, having two tandem wheels either of which is sixteen inches or more in diameter, or three wheels, any one of which is more than twenty inches in diameter.

    RCW 46.04.320
    Motor vehicle.


    "Motor vehicle" means every vehicle that is self-propelled and every vehicle that is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails. "Motor vehicle" includes a neighborhood electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.357. "Motor vehicle" includes a medium-speed electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.295. An electric personal assistive mobility device is not considered a motor vehicle. A power wheelchair is not considered a motor vehicle. A golf cart is not considered a motor vehicle, except for the purposes of chapter 46.61 RCW.

    (No bicycle)

    RCW 46.04.670
    Vehicle.


    "Vehicle" includes every device capable of being moved upon a public highway and in, upon, or by which any persons or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway, including bicycles. "Vehicle" does not include power wheelchairs or devices other than bicycles moved by human or animal power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. Mopeds are not considered vehicles or motor vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.70 RCW. Bicycles are not considered vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.12, 46.16A, or 46.70 RCW or RCW 82.12.045. Electric personal assistive mobility devices are not considered vehicles or motor vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.12, 46.16A, 46.29, 46.37, or 46.70 RCW. A golf cart is not considered a vehicle, except for the purposes of chapter 46.61 RCW.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  25. #25
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Roy, WA
    Posts
    1,329

    Open Carry w/ Conceal Carry Permit Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    "The RCWs apply to vehicles, motorcycles, and bicycles. Carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or
    bicycle is the same as carrying a firearm in a vehicle. You will need a license to carry a
    concealed weapon.
    "

    He did not say that all carry on a bike (both types) was by default concealed. Just that if you carry concealed then you need a CPL.

    That was not a rebuttal at all. Unless the AG has failed English lessons or is trying to deceive you by writing it the way it was written.
    Sorry to break it to you but the license is called "license to carry concealed pistol." That's what it's called. They were not stating the obvious that you need the license to do what it's named for. They said that carrying on a bike is the same as carrying in a car. All restrictions apply.

    My personal opinion however is that unless you're riding indoors that it meets the exception in .060. No matter your reasons for riding it can still be because you want to for the exercise. Just like I open carry for more than political reasons. The obvious reason is for self defense just like the obvious reason for biking is for exercise.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •