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Thread: Would OC deterred Travon's attack?

  1. #1
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    Would OC deterred Travon's attack?

    July 18, 2013

    CC: CC vs OC

    Sir,

    I listened to you on Armed American Radio pod cast when you were discussing the George Zimmerman self defense case. You said to the effect the best gun fight is the one that is avoided. Do you think that if George Zimmerman would have been openly carrying a properly holstered firearm that Travon Martin would have avoided him altogether? I understand we will never fully know the answer but just wanted your opinion of why or why not this would have been the case or not.

    I understand you say you like the tactical advantage of concealed carry but at what point was it an advantage: before the attack, during the attack, or after the attack? How did concealed carrying prevent the attack? I can see how an openly display of a lawfully owned firearm would have prevented an unarmed man from attacking but it's obvious that concealed carrying didn't.

    Just to be fair I have asked you these questions before and you did not give proof of how the open carrying of a firearm has made one a target but I can point to you how concealed carrying a firearm did not deter an attack. I'm not saying that George was a target because he was concealed carrying but the attack was not deterred. Here is a case that a concealed carrier was almost killed before he was even able to draw. You once scuffed at me saying that open carrying doesn't deter attacks. I can give you an example from George on how tow individuals deterred an attack on a Waffle House and didn't even know it; also, my wife can tell you she deterred an attack by open carrying.

    You are the expert so please give me facts and not opinions.

    Sincerely,


    Psalm 34:8

    I understand the open carrying isn't generally legal in Florida so please stick the question.
    Please keep this civil. You have gotten emotional with me before. I don't take I'm the expert and you are a nobody argument.

    So here are the two questions:

    1) Would open carrying possibly deterred the attack? why or why not

    2)At what time was concealed carrying an advantage: before the attack, after the attack, or during the attack.
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

  2. #2
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    Maybe may be may be not most likely because it was dark out Travon would not even have seen it.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    This is not possible to envision since open carry is not legal, except in a few cases, in Florida.
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    I know we won't know for sure but he was able to know what color of skin the person was so I'm guessing Travon would'v seen it.

    For those who are CC "experts" where was the tactical advantage?
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    This is not possible to envision since open carry is not legal, except in a few cases, in Florida.
    Did you read the above statement, I understand OC is not allowed in most cases but what if this was one of the cases where it was?
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The question posed does not require the OC be legal. The critical element to the question is the time that the altercation took place. The location, as to whether or not street lighting would have enabled a OC'd firearm readily visible. It appears that the firearm is small and thus it being holstered would have increased the difficulty of seeing it. There are many other factors.

    Essentially, we must guess, if TM would have seen the gun would he have attacked? I would like to think that wanna be thugs would value their life over any perceived slight. I think TM would not have attacked.

    CCers: The tactical advantage of the surprise counter attack; is code for "I might have the opportunity to shoot someone."
    OCers: I don't want to shoot anybody, but I'll let everybody know that I could.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I OC on a regular basis.
    I visited my bank while openly carrying (on the side that faces the tellers while making out my deposit slip) for six months before one of them noticed the huge black lump on my belt.

    There's no way to be sure either way, but someone made the assumption that someone else probably wasn't armed. That was the last bad decision he ever made.

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    Regular Member RugarRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    This is not possible to envision since open carry is not legal, except in a few cases, in Florida.
    Why would this not be possible to envision? It seems to me the most rabid CC advocates have no problem envisioning "what-if'" scenerios to bolster their beliefs. So why not turn the debate around and ask the question?

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Considering Trayvon just wanted to "do a little whup ass" because Z bruised his ego in front of his girlfriend, I suspect a visible firearm would have deterred him.

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    I'm going to say probably not, as in he (Trayvon) probably would not have seen it. People don't notice my OC all the time and it's a 1911 in a beautiful brown leather holster.
    It was a dark and rainy evening which obviously impedes anyone's vision.
    Also comparing noticing a gun on a hip to noticing the color of someone's skin is comparing apples to ice tea. Especially after being asked to identify it by a 911 dispatcher.



    edit: first line edited to include more info
    Last edited by AZRobert; 07-19-2013 at 12:06 PM.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZRobert View Post
    I'm going to say probably not, as in he (Trayvon) probably would not have seen it. People don't notice my OC all the time and it's a 1911 in a beautiful brown leather holster.
    It was a dark and rainy evening which obviously impedes anyone's vision.
    Trayvon was paying special attention to Zimmerman. He spent 4 minutes casing the dude before he sucker-punched him. I bet he'd have seen it.

    People don't notice OC because they're oblivious, not because OC is inconspicuous.
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-19-2013 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Trayvon was paying special attention to Zimmerman. He spent 4 minutes casing the dude before he sucker-punched him. I bet he'd have seen it.

    People don't notice OC because they're oblivious, not because OC is inconspicuous.

    This is what I conclude but again we will never really know; what we can do is use this to see how you will be treated if the national media will ever catch wind of the story.

    One reason I'd rather OC, because I'd rather not use my firearm. I'm happy to leave you alone if your happy to leave me alone.

    I know we don't have a lot of avid CC but no one has pointed out where the tactical advantage was/is to CC.

    Thanks to all those that have responded each has given me food for thought.
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    No. OC would have caused M to single out Z for attack first, and M would've grabbed Z's gun then shot him with it.

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    Would OC deterred Travon's attack?

    Nope, in fact I believe TM thought Zman was armed. In Rachel Jeantel's interview with Piers Morgan she told him that Trayvon thought Zman was a cop or security guard. If Zman had been OCing the outcome would probably been the same.

    Shame TM didn't live because if she had made the same statement TM would have been charged with assaulting a officer. It does not matter in Florida if the person is not, only that the perp thought they were a officer. There was a case in the Keys 20 years ago where a biker assaulted a retired out of state police officer in a Tom Thumb parking lot. The retired persons badge fell out during the attack, he was charged with assaulting a officer.

    Who knows what was really going through TM's mind, but by his texts he was into buying and selling guns. IMO Zman walked into an ambush.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    No. OC would have caused M to single out Z for attack first, and M would've grabbed Z's gun then shot him with it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Nope, in fact I believe TM thought Zman was armed. In Rachel Jeantel's interview with Piers Morgan she told him that Trayvon thought Zman was a cop or security guard. If Zman had been OCing the outcome would probably been the same.
    I don't buy it. Jabba was just lying, plain and simple. "Cracker" doesn't mean "someone who's acting like a cop", it means a white dude. In fact Jeantel was the one telling Trayvon the guy was probably a rapist. That's why he needed to "do a little whup ass"; gotta show off to his girlfriend. Ash Tray was just some punk, thought he was gonna be tough and, you know, thump his chest after a little "whup ass".

    He didn't think Z was armed. Not until he was on top of Z and beating the **** out of him.
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-19-2013 at 05:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Packer fan View Post
    This is what I conclude but again we will never really know; what we can do is use this to see how you will be treated if the national media will ever catch wind of the story.

    One reason I'd rather OC, because I'd rather not use my firearm. I'm happy to leave you alone if your happy to leave me alone.

    I know we don't have a lot of avid CC but no one has pointed out where the tactical advantage was/is to CC.

    Thanks to all those that have responded each has given me food for thought.
    In this situation there really isn't a tact advantage for cc. Cc vs oc usually boils down to comfort level and the suroundings of your environment. Would i oc at a huge rally or with lots of people(mardi gras) but i would cc in that event mainly due to close prox of people around me. But tea to each his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I don't buy it. Jabba was just lying, plain and simple. "Cracker" doesn't mean "someone who's acting like a cop", it means a white dude. In fact Jeantel was the one telling Trayvon the guy was probably a rapist. That's why he needed to "do a little whup ass"; gotta show off to his girlfriend. Ash Tray was just some punk, thought he was gonna be tough and, you know, thump his chest after a little "whup ass".

    He didn't think Z was armed. Not until he was on top of Z and beating the **** out of him.
    I agree if M thought Z was armed then he would've gone for the firearm first, but it was his girlfriend that said he maybe a homosexual rapist. I didn't see where she or he really thought he was a cop, security maybe but not a cop. How many security officers carry firearms; plus, Z was security of a sorts.

    But again, where was the advantage to CC if it would've just turned out the same?
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    In this situation there really isn't a tact advantage for cc. Cc vs oc usually boils down to comfort level and the suroundings of your environment. Would i oc at a huge rally or with lots of people(mardi gras) but i would cc in that event mainly due to close prox of people around me. But tea to each his own.
    The only time I was nervous about OC in a large crowd was at a Burger King restaurant in Springfield, Mo. You may know it is set up with little room to order and wait for food. I kept my strong side to the counter but funny thing is I don't know if anyone noticed it.

    Yes, if I know I am going to be in a tight, not big, crowed I'm CC but I prefer to OC.
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

  20. #20
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    The deterrence effect is well known...if TM would have behaved as one would expect (and not attack an armed individual) is a good question.

    Odds are he would not have.

    And going for the gun? This is generally only possible upon a complete surprise scenario which this instance was not such a case. Its easier to remove a gun from the person holding the gun than from his holster.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-20-2013 at 04:55 AM.

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    So, since this thread has died a natural death and nobody answered the second question it is safe to say that CC really doesn't have a tactical advantage over OC?

    The next time someone asks me why I open carry I'll tell them, "I like the tactical advantage, they'll leave me alone and attack you."
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    I think both have advantages and disadvantages. I think it is more of a political statement to open carry...tell the statist protectionist what the can go and do with themselves, but it does attract attention. CC you have the benefit of anonymity, but you also have to detriment of it. In this case I don't know if it would have mattered much. I could have been a deterrent, but I think TM was impaired by drank use and was paranoid. Crazy people do crazy stuff including attack people they know to be armed.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamabearCali View Post
    It could have been a deterrent, but I think TM was impaired by drank use and was paranoid. Crazy people do crazy stuff including attack people they know to be armed.
    I still don't think so.

    Now that we know Trayvon was just "gonna do a little whup ass", you're talking about a 17 year old who likes to act tough by beating people up knowingly putting himself into a kill-or-be-killed situation. I maintain that the whole problem here is that the macho "urban" subculture can't recognize that "a little whup ass" is a kill-or-be-kill situation when their victim isn't an experienced hand-to-hand fighter.

    My money: M sees Z OC, swallows his pride, forgets his ego and sends more thug life texts to Jabba.
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-31-2013 at 10:43 PM.

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    Would OC deterred Travon's attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by Packer fan View Post
    So, since this thread has died a natural death and nobody answered the second question it is safe to say that CC really doesn't have a tactical advantage over OC?

    The next time someone asks me why I open carry I'll tell them, "I like the tactical advantage, they'll leave me alone and attack you."
    Wouldn't that technically be a strategic advantage?


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Wouldn't that technically be a strategic advantage?
    No.

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