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Thread: How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

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    How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    This is only my second post on OCDO. I've read a lot of threads, but certainly not all of them. I'm looking for some information or advice on how to transition from CC to OC and vice versa. I'm not sure how to explain this well, but I'll give it a shot. No pun intended. If one is CC'ing and wants to switch to OC'ing either for comfort or to carry legally in a PFZ, should moving the firearm be done privately, like in a restroom where one can be alone? Or in one's vehicle? It's easy if one is simply concealing with a jacket, just take it off. What I'm talking about is switching from an IWB to OWB holster or similar situation.

    A related question is moving from OC to CC. If one is OC'ing, and puts on a jacket that doesn't completely conceal the firearm (ie. if it is unzipped or too short), would he be violating any law if he is a CPL holder? Does OC require the entire firearm to be visible? Does CC require the entire firearm to be completely concealed?

    Thanks for any feedback.

    - KC

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    just do it. no fanfare, no hiding, don't look sneaky. the more naturally you go about your business, the less likely you will be to attract unwanted attention. and it all depends on your comfort level. if you are only comfortable doing it in the bathroom, then that's what you should do. but if you are are comfortable walking in and naturally removing your jacket, as anyone might as they walk into a room, then do it that way.
    iwb to owb should probably be done in private just so no one sees you with gun in hand. just try to be discreet, i would do it in your car before you get out.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 07-20-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    This is only my second post on OCDO. I've read a lot of threads, but certainly not all of them. I'm looking for some information or advice on how to transition from CC to OC and vice versa. I'm not sure how to explain this well, but I'll give it a shot. No pun intended. If one is CC'ing and wants to switch to OC'ing either for comfort or to carry legally in a PFZ, should moving the firearm be done privately, like in a restroom where one can be alone? Or in one's vehicle? It's easy if one is simply concealing with a jacket, just take it off. What I'm talking about is switching from an IWB to OWB holster or similar situation.

    A related question is moving from OC to CC. If one is OC'ing, and puts on a jacket that doesn't completely conceal the firearm (ie. if it is unzipped or too short), would he be violating any law if he is a CPL holder? Does OC require the entire firearm to be visible? Does CC require the entire firearm to be completely concealed?

    Thanks for any feedback.

    - KC
    Just curious in which part of the mitten do you reside?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Some might say the left hand thumb. I live in the Keweenaw peninsula in the U.P., though I'm originally from the central Michigan area near Mt. Pleasant.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    Some might say the left hand thumb. I live in the Keweenaw peninsula in the U.P., though I'm originally from the central Michigan area near Mt. Pleasant.
    I would still heed SmellsLikeMichigan's advice but... seriously, if I had to pick one part of the state that would have the least number of issues with regards to the general public and OC it would be there.

    Whereabouts? Copper Harbor? Real nice up there... I need to get back north soon.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    This is only my second post on OCDO. I've read a lot of threads, but certainly not all of them. I'm looking for some information or advice on how to transition from CC to OC and vice versa. I'm not sure how to explain this well, but I'll give it a shot. No pun intended. If one is CC'ing and wants to switch to OC'ing either for comfort or to carry legally in a PFZ, should moving the firearm be done privately, like in a restroom where one can be alone? Or in one's vehicle? It's easy if one is simply concealing with a jacket, just take it off. What I'm talking about is switching from an IWB to OWB holster or similar situation.

    A related question is moving from OC to CC. If one is OC'ing, and puts on a jacket that doesn't completely conceal the firearm (ie. if it is unzipped or too short), would he be violating any law if he is a CPL holder? Does OC require the entire firearm to be visible? Does CC require the entire firearm to be completely concealed?

    Thanks for any feedback.

    - KC
    For your firearm to be considered as Openly Carried, enough of it has to be exposed so that the ordinary citizen will know it's a firearm. There have been some conversations regarding IWB (Inside the Waist Band holsters) and whether or not a firearm in one of those is concealed or not. Without a CPL, I would not risk carrying that way, even if the exposed part is visible. However, with a CPL, it doesn't really matter. So far as I know, concealed carry does not require the firearm to be completely concealed. If enough of the weapon is covered so that a rational person could not tell you were packing, then you need a CPL.

    As a CPL holder, switching from OC to CC is pretty much a non-issue.

    FYI, I am not a lawyer.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 07-23-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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    How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    I would still heed SmellsLikeMichigan's advice but... seriously, if I had to pick one part of the state that would have the least number of issues with regards to the general public and OC it would be there.

    Whereabouts? Copper Harbor? Real nice up there... I need to get back north soon.
    I live a few miles from Houghton and Michigan Tech University. While many people here are used to seeing and handling firearms, there are still those who are uneducated regarding carry laws. Some are uncomfortable when they see someone carrying who isn't wearing hunter's orange. The good news is that OC is increasing, which in turn leads to education and acceptance.

    I recently shared some OC information and my own experiences with a couple of guys at the local sports men's club. Maybe they will develop an interest in OC and try it for themselves now that they are a little more informed.

    BTW, I took the family up to Copper Harbor recently. It was a beautiful day to see some beautiful sights.

    - KC

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    How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    For your firearm to be considered as Openly Carried, enough of it has to be exposed so that the ordinary citizen will know it's a firearm. There have been some conversations regarding IWB (Inside the Waist Band holsters) and whether or not a firearm in one of those is concealed or not. Without a CPL, I would not risk carrying that way, even if the exposed part is visible. However, with a CPL, it doesn't really matter. So far as I know, concealed carry does not require the firearm to be completely concealed. If enough of the weapon is covered so that a rational person could not tell you were packing, then you need a CPL.

    As a CPL holder, switching from OC to CC is pretty much a non-issue.

    FYI, I am not a lawyer.
    If I understand you correctly, as a CPL holder, I could legally have my pistol holstered in plain view (OC) and put on a jacket which partially covers it, without violating any laws, correct? It simply becomes CC when I put on the jacket even though it's partially visible, correct?

    When I took my CPL course, I had the understanding that my pistol legally had to be completely concealed. I am now getting the impression that it wasn't an issue of legality, but simply the instructor emphasizing the concept of concealment assuming that those in the class wouldn't want anyone to know they were carrying.

    I simply want to carry comfortably, and I don't care whether or not anyone can tell that I'm carrying. For example, I don't want to worry about whether or not my shirt has come untucked and is now partially concealing my pistol.

    So, am I correct that with a CPL, I can legally carry my pistol in any holster regardless of how visible it may or may not be? I understand the PFZ restrictions and the fact that I must open carry in a bank, hospital, etc. as well as respect private property owners' firearm prohibitions.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    - KC

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    I understand the PFZ restrictions and the fact that I must open carry in a bank, hospital, etc. as well as respect private property owners' firearm prohibitions.
    Are you sure you understand?

    28.425o

    For brevity's sake these are partial descriptions of CC pistol free zones.

    (a) A school or school property


    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center


    (c) A sports arena or stadium.


    (d) A bar or tavern


    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship


    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more


    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    . . .

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
    A bank is NOT on the list of CC free zones. However, in order to OC in a bank you must meet one of the exemptions in 750.234d, one of which is having a CPL.

    750.234d

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.


    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.


    (c) A court.


    (d) A theatre.


    (e) A sports arena.


    (f) A day care center.


    (g) A hospital.


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.


    (b) A peace officer.


    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    More studying for you young Padawan

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    If I understand you correctly, as a CPL holder, I could legally have my pistol holstered in plain view (OC) and put on a jacket which partially covers it, without violating any laws, correct? It simply becomes CC when I put on the jacket even though it's partially visible, correct?
    If your jacket covers your pistol "mostly." to the point where a reasonable person would consider it concealed, then it's concealed. Realize, there are a lot of UN-reasonable people in this world (including this forum. ). To date, I've never read any part of the Michigan Concealed Pistol laws that say a concealed pistol has to be totally concealed. Printing is ok. As long as you don't mind it. Partial concealment is ok too. Be prepared though, some fanatic CCers might accuse you of trying to get attention. Just tell them to shut up and mind their own business.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    When I took my CPL course, I had the understanding that my pistol legally had to be completely concealed. I am now getting the impression that it wasn't an issue of legality, but simply the instructor emphasizing the concept of concealment assuming that those in the class wouldn't want anyone to know they were carrying.

    I simply want to carry comfortably, and I don't care whether or not anyone can tell that I'm carrying. For example, I don't want to worry about whether or not my shirt has come untucked and is now partially concealing my pistol.

    So, am I correct that with a CPL, I can legally carry my pistol in any holster regardless of how visible it may or may not be? I understand the PFZ restrictions and the fact that I must open carry in a bank, hospital, etc. as well as respect private property owners' firearm prohibitions.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    - KC
    Except for the part about banks, you're pretty much spot on. As mentioned in another message above, banks are not on the list of CC PFZs. There fore, as a CPL holder, you can open or conceal carry in a bank. I'd recommend making sure they don[t object first, though. Some will have signs posted, others will not. I usually conceal when going into my bank, unless I'm on my way to or from work, in which case, I'm in uniform. But that's my choice.

    And again, for clarification, I am not a lawyer. And I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night either.
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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    ...you can open or conceal carry in a bank...
    As long as it is not a Federal Reserve Bank... which is treated as Federal Property and subject to federal firearm restrictions...
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 07-25-2013 at 02:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    As long as it is not a Federal Reserve Bank... which is treated as Federal Property and subject to federal firearm restrictions...
    No. Cite the law.

    http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/05/04/042357P.pdf

    http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/...9.80-5905.html
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yeah, i would say it's treated as private property (because it is) and you're not getting in without a thorough search anyway.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 07-25-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    If your jacket covers your pistol "mostly." to the point where a reasonable person would consider it concealed, then it's concealed. Realize, there are a lot of UN-reasonable people in this world (including this forum. )
    Yea, the cops are not going to take a photo .. they'll just testify it was showing almost all the gun. And they knew you had a gun so a judge or jury would eat that up like candy .... yummy yummy.. your testimony?-may as well talk to the wall, it would mean nothing.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Federal reserve bank is federal in name only. They are private property and as such can make their own rules.

    Stay informed about events in your area http://miopencarry.org/updates
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Are you sure you understand?

    28.425o

    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]For brevity's sake these are partial descriptions of CC pistol free zones.
    [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

    A bank is NOT on the list of CC free zones. However, in order to OC in a bank you must meet one of the exemptions in 750.234d, one of which is having a CPL.

    750.234d



    More studying for you young Padawan

    Bronson
    Thank you for pointing out my error. I think posting late at night while I'm tired isn't the best, but it's rare that I will have any other opportunity. It is my understanding that a CPL holder may OC in the all of the areas listed in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d, but I have not yet committed those to memory. This is covered in the MSP Legal Update 86.
    http://miopencarry.org/sites/default...2_336854_7.pdf

    I also understand that a CPL holder may CC in the areas listed in MCL 750.234d that are not also listed in MCL 28.425o. If I have applied logic correctly, this would include banks, courts, theaters with seating capacity less than 2500, and businesses with liquor licenses not deriving their primary income from sale by the glass.

    I found the following post quite useful and informative:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...6&d=1329051279

    However, at this point I'm not entirely sure of it's correctness.
    The chart indicates the following scenarios that I believe may be in error.

    1. No CC in federal reserve banks with a CPL. Information presented here claims these banks are privately owned.
    2. No CC or OC in any court. Wouldn't this only apply to federal courts, or is there a state law that applies?
    3. No CC or OC in any casino. Information presented here indicates this is only the case for the three casinos in Detroit.
    4. No OC in a church without permission. I don't see where permission is required for a CPL holder.
    5. OC with or without a CPL in a college dorm or classroom is omitted. Am I missing something here?

    I also found the following handy reference cards, which may contain similar errors.
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...mits_Front.pdf
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...imits_Back.pdf

    Okay, I've risked enough criticism for one night. I'm tired, my brain hurts, and its very likely that I twisted something up here. I'm not challenging the information that has been shared, just trying to understand and get a handle on it.

    Thanks again for all of the feedback. It really is appreciated.

    - KC

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    You're doing fine. Don't let me get to you, I'm just a crotchety old fart Any criticism really should be directed at MI Legislators who make all these confusing interconnected goofball laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    I also understand that a CPL holder may CC in the areas listed in MCL 750.234d that are not also listed in MCL 28.425o. If I have applied logic correctly, this would include banks, courts, theaters with seating capacity less than 2500, and businesses with liquor licenses not deriving their primary income from sale by the glass.
    The "no carry in a court" rule is because of a MI Supreme Court Administrative Order that governs MI courts.

    http://courts.mi.gov/Administration/...ds/cs_stds.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    However, at this point I'm not entirely sure of it's correctness.
    The chart indicates the following scenarios that I believe may be in error.
    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    1. No CC in federal reserve banks with a CPL. Information presented here claims these banks are privately owned.
    You know, I could have sworn that at one time 28.425o listed them as CC free zones but now it's not listed....maybe I'm losing my mind. Regardless, they are private property and can make their own rules for their property. The truth is there's only one here in MI and I'm 100% certain I'll never need to enter it in my entire life.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    2. No CC or OC in any court. Wouldn't this only apply to federal courts, or is there a state law that applies?
    See the link above.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    3. No CC or OC in any casino. Information presented here indicates this is only the case for the three casinos in Detroit.
    I'll let DrTodd answer this one as he's done quite a bit of research on the subject

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    4. No OC in a church without permission. I don't see where permission is required for a CPL holder.
    Under the law a CPL holder may OC in a church without prior permission but as with all private property they will always have the right to ask you to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    5. OC with or without a CPL in a college dorm or classroom is omitted. Am I missing something here?
    Kind of. The MI Constitution grants broad powers to UofM, MSU, and WSU and I believe there is legislation that grants some pretty broad powers to other Universities and Community Colleges to enact rules for property they control. Unfortunately I don't have links to that info so if somebody has something that confirms or contradicts my info please post it.

    I'm not a lawyer, just a dude who's learned from the people that came before me so please treat this like all free advice, and do NOT treat it as legal advice

    Bronson
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Federal reserve bank is federal in name only. They are private property and as such can make their own rules.

    Stay informed about events in your area http://miopencarry.org/updates


    OR even more convenient they could just go to the events section on this vary forum, much more convenient don't you think?
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...ichigan-Events
    Last edited by Raggs; 07-26-2013 at 10:43 AM.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcsmith88 View Post
    3. No CC or OC in any casino. Information presented here indicates this is only the case for the three casinos in Detroit.

    Your understanding is correct. The pertinent section of MCL 28.425o reads:

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the
    Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1,
    MCL 432.201 to 432.226.



    The Michigan Gaming Control and Revenue Act and the Michigan Gaming Control Board Administrative Rules only regulate NON-Native American Casinos in Michigan. As far as I know, those entities only exist in the Detroit Area. See Section entitled "Who We Are and What We Do" here: http://www.michigan.gov/mgcb




    From reading your posts, it appears that you are concerned about the definition of "concealed" within the state of Michigan. Whereas some states have a legal definition built into their fireram laws such as a certain number of square inches, Michigan leaves the definition of concealed to a jury. Although this is somewhat saying "Try it and see if it violates the law", an ambiguous statement with severe consequences, the courts have given some guidance to the definition. I am not an attorney and therefore you should not read this as legal advice, I feel it would be instructive to post some case law in order that you could form your own opinion regarding what indicates that a pistol is concealed.




    Provision of this section proscribing carrying concealed weapon in a vehicle only has but one element, operative words of which are that any person who knowingly carries a pistol in any vehicle operated or occupied by him shall be guilty of a felony, reference to license in statute constituting acknowledgement that one may be authorized to carry pistol, but not adding additional element to offense.
    -People v Henderson (1974)


    ..the purpose of the statute is to discourage quarreling persons from suddenly drawing and using concealed weapons. -People v Adams (1988)


    Total concealment or absolute invisibility is not prerequisite to violation of this section and a pistol may be concealed within meaning hereat when it is not discernable by ordinary observation of persons coming into contact with carrier and casually observing him as in the ordinary associations of life. People v Jones (1968)


    …whether element of concealment has been established is ordinarily question for jury People v Kincade (1975)


    Issue of concealment …depends on circumstances of case and question of whether weapon was concealed from ordinary observation is for trier of fact. People v Iacopelli (1971)


    Carrying a concealed weapon is a general intent crime. The only intent necessary is an attempt to do the prohibited act, that is to knowingly carry a weapon on one’s person or in an automobile. People v Combs (1987)


    Burden is on accused to establish statutory exception in prosecution under statute proscribing carrying concealed weapon except in one’s house, place of business or other land possessed by him. People v Gatt (1977)


    Plant protection men who are not members of military police auxillary, but who carry guns while on duty, need license to carry concealed weapons, but no license is required if guns are carried openly. Op Atty Gen, February 14, 1945. No. 0-3158


    Carrying pistol in holster or belt, outside of clothing in plain view, does not constitute carrying concealed weapon, but wearing it under coat would be violation of statute. Op Atty Gen, February 14, 1945. No. 0-3158
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-26-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    I'm aware that the Federal Reserve is a privately owned entity, however:

    Quote Originally Posted by 18 U.S.C. 930 : US Code - Section 930: Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
    not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon
    be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes
    to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal
    facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or
    imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
    subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
    facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon,
    or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as
    provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
    purposes.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Same cite further down
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part
    thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
    employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing
    their official duties
    I suppose I should have used different wording, but it would seem to me that that last bit there could be used to argue that they qualify, since there are regularly Federally employed guards and other employees there 'regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties'

    Also... and I don't know this this is a question, but it would seem possible that even though the institution is privately owned, that the property/building on/in which it resides may still be federal property. I shall have to investigate this... but then again...

    This is all kind of moot because there are like 24 of them in the country, and you probably have no business there unless you work for a bank. So this might not even be useful to figure out.

  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    The federal reserve banks use federal security police? The one in Detroit had what looked like private security out front a few years ago when I was in that area.

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  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties
    Just having Federal employees on site on a regular basis isn't enough. The Feds must own or lease the building....which we've already established that they (likely) don't because the Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned and operated.

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  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I'll just add: Do not carry in a Post Office.
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  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: How should one legally transition from CC to OC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Just having Federal employees on site on a regular basis isn't enough. The Feds must own or lease the building....which we've already established that they (likely) don't because the Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned and operated.

    Bronson
    I might have missed it in the posts above, but isn't there a requirement that the facility be properly posted? In the few Federal Facilities that I have actually entered, only a few were properly posted. I also will add that I think the prohibition in Post Offices doesn't fall under the same law as that prohibiting carry in Federal Facilities. But, I do think both laws may have a requirement that the building be PROPERLY posted that firearms are prohibited.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-27-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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    Do we have a new moderator for the form?

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