Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: First encounter with LEO

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5

    First encounter with LEO

    I OC'ed for the first time at the County Fair and was approached by 3 County Sheriffs.

    I was Ocing for about an hour and then basically ambushed by 3 Porter County Sheriffs.When I say ambushed, I mean they came out of no where. I had two on my right side (where my gun was) and one facing me who was talking to me. He was very polite, asked for my LTCH and ID. Said I wasnt allowed to carry on the grounds. Let me wait for my girlfriend to get off the ride since i had our kid in the stroller.. He asked me about the length it took to get my LTCH as well and seemed curious. They all left while I was still waiting for my girlfriend to get off the ride. First encounter with LEO and it was an excellent one. Hope all my encounters are that way.

    My question is, How do I know if I can carry at the Porter Couny fair?

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    OCDO reference says this:
    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=226 & http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=103

    Apparently been legal to carry there for a number of years according to this:
    http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry-...air-today.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member skeith5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    357

    Re: First encounter with LEO

    Doesn't seem like a very excellent encounter to me... they ambush you, tell you that you can't carry when it looks like you legally can. Am I missing something?
    Too lazy to do a blog! Follow me on Twitter instead! @6ShotScott

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South Bend, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    260
    The most direct way to find out is ask the police who said you can't carry, "Why not?"

    If they say it's state law or a local ordinance, then their answer is bogus.

    If it's a rule by the fair board and the fair board is a private board, not a "political subsection" then they can ask you to leave if you are carrying.

    I have not been able to figure out whether the fair board is or is not a political subsection. This is a relevant question due to http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod...47/ch11.1.html

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,155
    And, of course, OP was constructively detained and arrested by superior numbers, tactical positioning, badges, guns, big-boy voices, ad anuseam[sic].
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Did they request that you leave? It seems that they were not too concerned about you if they left you where they made contact with you. Or, did one or more remain with visual range of you to be sure you left the grounds? More details please? Is there a recording of this event?

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Did they request that you leave? It seems that they were not too concerned about you if they left you where they made contact with you. Or, did one or more remain with visual range of you to be sure you left the grounds? More details please? Is there a recording of this event?
    He just asked to put it in my vehicle. I didn't notice anybody following or watching us. No recording either.

    He is email to and from Porter County Sheriff:

    Sheriff ,

    Hello, I was at the Porter County Fair yesterday and while I was carrying my sidearm with me and was asked politely to take it back to my vehicle. I complied and when I got home I read up on the laws about carrying at the fair. I have found out that if the fair ground is owned by the county and run by the county then it is illegal to enforce signage posted on the fences. If I am wrong would you be able to provide me with the law of which can be enforced?

    Thank you for your time.

    Sincerely,

    Me
    Thank you for the complimentary words about our officer. I am curious how he knew that you were armed. Did you mention it, or was it visible at the time?
    In answer to your question, the fairgrounds is rented by the Agricultural Society from the county during the fair. The renters have set certain prohibitions for the property including firearms and alcohol. The Society contracts for security.

    Sheriff

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    Doesn't seem like a very excellent encounter to me... they ambush you, tell you that you can't carry when it looks like you legally can. Am I missing something?
    It might not seem like it to you, but to me he was very polite and professional. He never talked down to me or acted like he was superior. I could have had my handgun stripped down, as i have read some Leos do on traffic stops.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Your state has a stop & ID law ... http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar28/ch5.html

    §34-28-5-3.5


    But I don't think that an infraction or ordinance was being said to be violated ....


    I would not have been happy ....

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    It would appear that the primary consideration is not who owns the property but who controls it.

    In this case a group of private actors (the Society) have rented the property to operate the fair. As tenants the enjoy certain privileges, one of which is to make and enforce rules on their leased property.

    This is not unlike if you should rent a house - you determine who may enter and under what circumstances.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South Bend, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    260
    Sounds like the agricultural society is not a political subsection under 11.1 and can set rules for their events. Sucks that the sheriff's department is contracted to enforce those rules.

    Maybe an email to the agricultural society would accomplish nothing except to let you say what you want to say to the people who ought to be listening.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by endlesskustumz View Post
    It might not seem like it to you, but to me he was very polite and professional. He never talked down to me or acted like he was superior. I could have had my handgun stripped down, as i have read some Leos do on traffic stops.
    I would like to invite you to change your standard. We have tons of reports on this forum of cops politely and professionally violating people's rights. In this case, from the rest of the thread, it sounds like he was legal to ask you to leave.

    Separately, it can be a little dangerous sending off e-mails while uncertain about the legalities. Had it been illegal to carry at the fair, your e-mail was a written confession. Its better to get a fix on the legalitites before poking the bear. You never know when a superior or prosecutor might be actively opposed to self-defense rights, and might try to prosecute. It has happened. The two OCers that come to mind ended up spending a ton of money in legal defenses. One was successful, the other not.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    Sounds like the agricultural society is not a political subsection under 11.1 and can set rules for their events. Sucks that the sheriff's department is contracted to enforce those rules.

    Maybe an email to the agricultural society would accomplish nothing except to let you say what you want to say to the people who ought to be listening.
    Whether contracted to enforce the rules or called to the scene by phone matters little I think. Assuming the fair can make its own rules, the fair need only ask you to leave. If you don't, the fair can just call the deputies to remove a trespasser.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-22-2013 at 08:10 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Warrenton, Oregon
    Posts
    317
    It may make a difference under your state laws if the Agricultural Society is renting or leasing, something for legal beagles to look into.

    But here's my real question: Is it a County Fair where the Agricultural Society is paid to manage and run the fair for the County OR is it the Agricultural Society's county fair?

    If the Agricultural Society pays the county to rent or lease the land to hold their fair on, ok then they probably (IANAL) can control carry at the event.
    BUT, if the County pays the Agricultural Society to manage and run the fair for the County, then I believe (IANAL) it is a county event and normal public carry rules should apply.

    So, find out who pays who, then check with a lawyer.
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It would appear that the primary consideration is not who owns the property but who controls it.

    In this case a group of private actors (the Society) have rented the property to operate the fair. As tenants the enjoy certain privileges, one of which is to make and enforce rules on their leased property.

    This is not unlike if you should rent a house - you determine who may enter and under what circumstances.
    he who has the guns, makes the rules !

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    he who has the guns, makes the rules !
    That is a catchy old cliche, but it is a stretch to apply it here at all.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I would like to invite you to change your standard. We have tons of reports on this forum of cops politely and professionally violating people's rights. In this case, from the rest of the thread, it sounds like he was legal to ask you to leave.

    Separately, it can be a little dangerous sending off e-mails while uncertain about the legalities. Had it been illegal to carry at the fair, your e-mail was a written confession. Its better to get a fix on the legalitites before poking the bear. You never know when a superior or prosecutor might be actively opposed to self-defense rights, and might try to prosecute. It has happened. The two OCers that come to mind ended up spending a ton of money in legal defenses. One was successful, the other not.
    The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

    Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

    I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South Bend, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    260
    Quote Originally Posted by endlesskustumz View Post
    The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

    Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

    I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.
    There are a lot of people posting in this thread who are obviously unfamiliar with Indiana law.

    I think you handled it perfectly.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by endlesskustumz View Post
    The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

    Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

    I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.
    Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-22-2013 at 11:14 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by endlesskustumz View Post
    The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

    Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

    I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.
    He would have had to have known the rule making authority to complete that equation.

    If county owned and operated, then OC or CC with permit would have been legal. Then asking him to leave would have been improper.

    With a venue in place, then the trespass element become viable. Don't see that he knew who was making the rules at the time.

    Hindsight is 20/20 - foresight doesn't approach that. There is no penalty for not having perfect vision. We are all here to share and learn.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    There are a lot of people posting in this thread who are obviously unfamiliar with Indiana law.

    I think you handled it perfectly.
    Thank you, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.
    No need to apologize. I was just informing you since I realized you were from out of state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    He would have had to have known the rule making authority to complete that equation.

    If county owned and operated, then OC or CC with permit would have been legal. Then asking him to leave would have been improper.

    With a venue in place, then the trespass element become viable. Don't see that he knew who was making the rules at the time.

    Hindsight is 20/20 - foresight doesn't approach that. There is no penalty for not having perfect vision. We are all here to share and learn.
    Exactly, that's basically why I came here. To ask if anybody knew who ran it. Found my answer on another forum after i received the response from the Sheriff.

    Thank you to all who responded and helped me out. Also, I hope a few people learned about Indiana laws in case they ever come this way.

  22. #22
    Regular Member robert1970's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    idaho
    Posts
    111
    I haven't had a negative encounter with a leo yet, but did encounter a Brady Campaign supporter today.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •