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Thread: Definition of 'valid identification'?

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Definition of 'valid identification'?

    ORC 2923.126 says a licensee must be "carrying a valid license and valid identification", but it does not define what 'valid identification' means.

    I've been told that it means a valid, state-issued ID card or driver license.

    BUt which law says that?
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Here is my non-authoritative guess. If it is a state law asking for identification, it should be identification issued by the state, unless the state has elsewhere specifically recognized another form.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Wisconsin specifies an operator's license issued per Wisc. Stats. Ch. 343 or other state equivalent. It will be interesting if and when they try to refuse a federal passport/passport card as it has verified residence address and a photograph. Unless driving carry a PP card.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    There is just something (I don't know how to tactfully put this) VILE about using federal identification for purposes other than foreign travel.
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-22-2013 at 12:28 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    §3503.16(B)(1)(a) and 3505.18(A)(1)

    For one to vote, valid ID must be shown and this could include:

    Current and valid photo identification, defined as a document that shows the individual’s name and current address, includes a photograph, includes an expiration date that has not passed, and was issued by the U.S. government or the state of Ohio
    Current utility bill
    Current bank statement
    Current government check, paycheck or other government document


    The law, as you wrote, does not ask for photo ID ... so I would use the voter ID requirements ... but hey, that's just me

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    See the REAL ID Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109–13, 119 Stat. 302, enacted May 11, 2005 and the 100 mile Constitution Free Zone

    http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    See the REAL ID Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109–13, 119 Stat. 302, enacted May 11, 2005 and the 100 mile Constitution Free Zone

    http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map
    I just laugh at these .... no court can say that you have no rights in the USA. Nor legislative body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    ORC 2923.126 says a licensee must be "carrying a valid license and valid identification", but it does not define what 'valid identification' means.

    I've been told that it means a valid, state-issued ID card or driver license.

    BUt which law says that?
    This is probably an historical remnant from when a driver's license was not necessarily an ID. For example, years ago, a DL from NY was not very good for identifying the holder. Were that person to be stopped while driving in OH, the officer couldn't be sure that the driver was the licensee absent some other form of ID. Now driver's licenses tend to BE ID, so if you have a DL, you also have the ID.

    Just my guess as to how we got here. In Ohio, currently, your DL is a "valid identification."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    This is probably an historical remnant from when a driver's license was not necessarily an ID. For example, years ago, a DL from NY was not very good for identifying the holder. Were that person to be stopped while driving in OH, the officer couldn't be sure that the driver was the licensee absent some other form of ID. Now driver's licenses tend to BE ID, so if you have a DL, you also have the ID.

    Just my guess as to how we got here. In Ohio, currently, your DL is a "valid identification."
    Not every adult has a DL...I know many that do not. Not that a DL is not a valid ID...it just cannot be the only...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Not every adult has a DL...I know many that do not. Not that a DL is not a valid ID...it just cannot be the only...
    Um...duh...the OP is talking about the requirement for a DL and an ID while driving, clearly wondering why both would be needed.

    Moving on from the stupidity of your distraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Um...duh...the OP is talking about the requirement for a DL and an ID while driving, clearly wondering why both would be needed.

    Moving on from the stupidity of your distraction.
    ********************************

    2923.126 [Effective Until1/1/2014] Duties of licensed individual.

    (A) A concealed handgun license....

    ********************************

    If OH is full of geniuses ... then eye is the person bringing the state's avg IQ back to normal ... Dweeb.

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    One of the meanings for valid is to have legal force. So, I imagine they're talking about an unexpired government-issued identification of some sort.

    If it gets too out of hand, then Kolender v Lawson would kick in. This was the case where CA's stop-and-identify statute was shot down because its definition of acceptable ID documentation was so vague as to give the cop unconstitutional latitude to arrest someone for violating the statute.

    But, the statute in the present discussion seems to narrow it down quite a bit--only a valid identification document would fit, which I take to mean an unexpired government-issued identity document such as drivers license, state issued ID card, military ID, etc.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    There is just something (I don't know how to tactfully put this) VILE about using federal identification for purposes other than foreign travel.
    Respectfully, I must disagree. My state issued driving license and weapons licenses both state my home address which I may not like some busy body officer and all his buddies to know. A passport card does not list any information that could be compromising.

    Is a home address important?
    I dunno, ask to see Officer Friendly's driving license which lists his home address and see how happy he is about that. The most likely thing you're ever going to be presented with is a county or department issued card which lists a name and has a photograph and is likely of lesser quality than mos high school counterfeiters could whip up during their lunch break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    One of the meanings for valid is to have legal force. So, I imagine they're talking about an unexpired government-issued identification of some sort.

    If it gets too out of hand, then Kolender v Lawson would kick in. This was the case where CA's stop-and-identify statute was shot down because its definition of acceptable ID documentation was so vague as to give the cop unconstitutional latitude to arrest someone for violating the statute.

    But, the statute in the present discussion seems to narrow it down quite a bit--only a valid identification document would fit, which I take to mean an unexpired government-issued identity document such as drivers license, state issued ID card, military ID, etc.
    The DOT seems to think that other non-governmental documents are acceptable. So it is vague as to what they mean.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    The statute does not say I have to carry a valid identification DOCUMENT, so wouldn't verbally giving my name, address and DOB qualify?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    The statute does not say I have to carry a valid identification DOCUMENT, so wouldn't verbally giving my name, address and DOB qualify?
    Are you "valid" ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    The statute does not say I have to carry a valid identification DOCUMENT, so wouldn't verbally giving my name, address and DOB qualify?
    But it also says you must be carrying said ID, which seems to mean something in your possession, not you yourself, no?

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Okay, maybe verbal ID won't cut it, but how about the CHL itself?

    Can the one provide both? It does have name, address and DOB. And the Ohio BMV accepts the Ohio CHL as a primary identification document.

    The law does not say that the license and ID have to be separate documents. I'm leaning toward the possibility that the lawmakers wanted valid ID for those other state CC licenses that may not have all 3 items listed.

    The law regarding when we are required to ID ourselves (2921.29) only requires disclosure of name, address and DOB. The Ohio CHL has those.

    It would seem that I do not require a separate form of ID if the CHL itself is valid ID.
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    Operator AND means "additionally a different item" in the law I would think.

    2921.29 ... hmmmm interesting

    DMV would take a gas bill as an ID record ....

    One can call his state rep and ask for an opinion from them or the attny gen office ... if you want to deal with those a---

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    Definition of 'valid identification'?

    Again, folks, this is probably a remnant from when licenses were not IDs. Has anyone here ever been stopped and asked for that second ID???


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, folks, this is probably a remnant from when licenses were not IDs. Has anyone here ever been stopped and asked for that second ID???


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    Again? Did you think we didn't hear you the first time? Does it just bug you that others continue their individual lines of discussion so much that you feel you have to inject again whatever it is you think is the final word on the subject?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I find strange the presumption of multiple, even frequent, line of duty interactions with officious officials, cops and FedGov agents. It has been 34 years since my last traffic stop and my average annual mileage is pretty constant at 16K.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, folks, this is probably a remnant from when licenses were not IDs. Has anyone here ever been stopped and asked for that second ID???
    Not sure why you would think that - we aren't talking about what Ohio requires you to carry while driving but what Ohio says you must carry while carrying a concealed handgun in Ohio - whether on foot, in a vehicle or whatever.

    Since ORC 2923.126 says "a licensee who has been issued a concealed handgun license ... may carry a concealed handgun anywhere in this state if the licensee also carries a valid license and valid identification when the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed handgun." I take it to mean the valid license is an unexpired/unrevoked Concealed Handgun License, and the valid identification to be an additional valid form of ID.

    And yes, folks here in Ohio get asked for both their CHL and DL (and presumably some other form of ID absent a DL) when stopped by LEO.
    Last edited by JustaShooter; 07-27-2013 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, folks, this is probably a remnant from when licenses were not IDs. Has anyone here ever been stopped and asked for that second ID???


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    I've only been stopped while driving but have never even been asked for my CHL.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The term “valid identification” is only referenced in:
    Chapter 2923 - Conspiracy, Attempt, And Complicity; Weapons Control; Corrupt Activity.

    The term “government-issued identification” is referenced in:
    Chapter 1547 - Watercraft and Waterways.
    Chapter 3715 - Pure Food and Drug law.
    Chapter 4563 Airports.

    The term “valid-photo identification” is referenced in:
    Chapter 3503 - Voters-Qualifications; Registration.
    Chapter 3505 - General and Special Election Ballots.

    The only definition in the ORC containing the term identification is under Chapter 3501 referring to the term “Photo identification.”

    ORC 3501.01(AA) "Photo identification" means a document that meets each of the following requirements:
    (1) It shows the name of the individual to whom it was issued, which shall conform to the name in the poll list or signature pollbook.
    (2) It shows the current address of the individual to whom it was issued, which shall conform to the address in the poll list or signature pollbook, except for a driver's license or a state identification card issued under section 4507.50 of the Revised Code, which may show either the current or former address of the individual to whom it was issued, regardless of whether that address conforms to the address in the poll list or signature pollbook.
    (3) It shows a photograph of the individual to whom it was issued.
    (4) It includes an expiration date that has not passed.
    (5) It was issued by the government of the United States or this state.
    The Ohio Secretary of State's office said that a current and valid photo identification card issued by the State of Ohio is acceptable. An Ohio concealed carry license is an acceptable form of I.D. to vote because it meets the requirements of ORC 3501.01(AA) as listed above.

    ORC 2923.126 says: ...concealed handgun anywhere in this state if the licensee also carries a valid license and valid identification when the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed handgun.

    Since Ohio Secretary of State accepts the concealed carry license because it meets the requirements of being a valid identification for voting purposes. And there is no other ORC definition, including any court cases addressing the subject matter, defining what a valid ID is, then a reasonable conclusion is that the conceal carry license, in of itself, is also a valid identification and serves as such accordingly.

    In other words, when carrying concealed, outside of operating a motor vehicle, your CCL also serves as a valid identification.

    I would bet an attorney would come to the same conclusion. But, we also know that the courts are unpredictable.

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