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Meramec float trip - fatal shooting after dispute over property rights along waterway

Superlite27

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The SD claim may be the easy component of this case.

Easy to dismiss.

1) He fired several "warning" shots. Really? If you have time to decide to fire warning shots, you must not be in much fear of IMMEDIATE BODILY HARM, eh?

2) He shot one of the only people WITHOUT a rock in their hand.

3) By HIS OWN ADMISSION....reportedly said to the state trooper arriving at the scene, "I just shot the one closest to me."

Yep. Pretty cut and dried. This guy is going to do time. Comments such as, "He was always a nice guy." made by neighbors aren't going to matter one little bit.
 

OC for ME

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I agree the court case will hinge on this issue.

What I meant was, if I ever found myself in that situation, I would consider accepting the word of a man with a gun and an obvious "no trespassing" sign that I was on his property. Maybe the issue of trespass is ambiguous, but I'd think the gun and the sign could clear it up well enough for me to be on my way. Even if the guy is technically wrong.

It's not worth a fight. It's definitely not worth dying over.
If a dude with a pistol tells me to leave, and I am in public park, I'm leaving. Dude with gun has the power, so to speak.

The floaters have a absolute right to use the waterway because the water belongs to the people of the state. As soon as you set foot on "dry" ground you may be trespassing. The land owner owns the ground adjacent to the water and the ground under the water to his property line.

Unfortunately for the floasters:
Meramec River - Crawford County - non-navigable, Slovensky v. O'Reilly, Mo., 233 S.W. 478 (1921);

http://ago.mo.gov/opinions/1971/264-71.htm
Non-navigable means that Crocker could be within his rights to claim trespassing. The incident took place just about smack-dab in the middle of Crawford County. Crocker could not place a sign on the gravel bar, that would be a violation of state and federal law. He can only place a sign, or paint trees with a purple mark, above the vegetation line. So, it gives the appearance that his private property line starts away from the waterway and thus the gravel bar.
 

marshaul

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Easy to dismiss.

1) He fired several "warning" shots. Really? If you have time to decide to fire warning shots, you must not be in much fear of IMMEDIATE BODILY HARM, eh?

Maybe not at the moment of firing the warning shots... This part is unclear. The police seem to be claiming he fired all the shots in rapid succession.

2) He shot one of the only people WITHOUT a rock in their hand.

3) By HIS OWN ADMISSION....reportedly said to the state trooper arriving at the scene, "I just shot the one closest to me."

Oh, so one dude holding a rock, and the other guy grabbing for your gun are completely unconnected? That doesn't constitute a serious threat?

This is not a cut and dry case.
 
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OC for ME

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Easy to dismiss.

1) He fired several "warning" shots. Really? If you have time to decide to fire warning shots, you must not be in much fear of IMMEDIATE BODILY HARM, eh?

2) He shot one of the only people WITHOUT a rock in their hand.

3) By HIS OWN ADMISSION....reportedly said to the state trooper arriving at the scene, "I just shot the one closest to me."

Yep. Pretty cut and dried. This guy is going to do time. Comments such as, "He was always a nice guy." made by neighbors aren't going to matter one little bit.
You could be right.

Though:
"I fired warning shots to try to disperse the crowd of 40 or so potentially hostile people so that I could get away from them."
"I shot the closest guy to me because I thought he was grabbing my arm to knock me in the head with a rock and take my pistol away from me."

Maybe not so cut and dried.

Either way, with the uniqueness of SD cases, any significant negative impact to Missouri's SD laws is very remote. Crocker was, as far as I can tell, on his land, facing a hostile crowd of individuals claiming that they were on public property. He was then apparently assaulted when one of those hostile individuals grabbed for his gun. icing on the cake for being assaulted, any bruising or other marks where he was grabbed.
 

Superlite27

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If anything, this case should be a PRIME EXAMPLE of keeping one's MOUTH SHUT.

I feel for the guy. By all accounts, he seems to have had the genuine intent of defending his property. However, making a statement such as, "I just shot the one closest to me." serves no purpose other than to reinforce the idea that he simply popped one into the nearest bystander's head simply for emphasis. Whether or not the dead guy was reaching for his arm to calm him down, or reaching for his arm to take his gun away is all open to analysis and interpretation. It is an unresolved point.

The phrase, "I just shot the one closest to me." on the other hand, doesn't seem to be a statement that will bring any benefit to the accused.

Therefore, using this as an example, I offer that making ANY statement is probably not a good idea since it will be hard to tell how it will sound or "come off" when, and if a person appears in court.

This statement doesn't appear to be too good. Hence, my original prediction that this guy is going to do some time.
 

LMTD

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Unless they were real tiny, any rocks at all constitute potentially deadly force.

People can be so f'in dumb, can't they?

Yeah, I was thinking about it and I think anything perhaps the size of about a golf ball or larger would be a real problem, not so much for death but the statute is serious permanent injury or something like that and a rock that large could absolutely cause a serious injury.

Yeah, they can be dumber than the rocks!

I think the jury and judge are going to be sorting out the "who was more wrong" in this one to figure an outcome.
 

LMTD

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If a dude with a pistol tells me to leave, and I am in public park, I'm leaving. Dude with gun has the power, so to speak.

I want to tag onto that as well and I see some problems with some of the responses to it.

Forget the law! I mean really, I know mug shots are never ones best side, but in this guys case he looks like a NUT. Now add waving a gun around and it is time to get out of Dodge!

OK, forget his looks, how about just some idiot waving a gun around in an unsafe manner? I have left the unmanned ranges before because idiots were there!

In the words of my students "Real talk dawg, I just don't want to get shot"

And the fact is, no matter the legal outcome, the guy floating the river is forever dead whether he had legal standing or not is totally moot.

Idiot with a gun, leave and call authorities, no other good plan in my mind. Might not settle the debates here, but if he had done it, the floating guy would still quite likely be with his family tonight, may he RIP.
 

Mo

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I'll defend a legit case of self defense. Some whack job losing control doesn't cut it.
 

OC for ME

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Elder v. Delcour clearly states that any citizen can float or wade that section of the Meramec. What Elder v. Delcour did not say is that a floater or wader could enter upon the dry land (gravel bar?), except to go around obstacles that prevent floating or wading. The water is where you must stay. It does not matter that the gravel bar was underwater yesterday or that it may be underwater tomorrow. The only fact that matters is that it is not underwater, today, when you step out of the water onto the dry land. Crocker owned the gravel bar as he owns his front yard, it is his property.
 

Superlite27

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The only fact that matters is that it is not underwater, today, when you step out of the water onto the dry land. Crocker owned the gravel bar as he owns his front yard, it is his property.

Is this really the only fact that matters?

Does this fact remove the relevancy of questions regarding reasonable fear for one's safety, immediate bodily harm, the commission of a forcible felony (Castle Doctrine) and all that jazz?

You're saying that "the only fact that matters" is trespassing?

Therefore, if I find someone on my property, they mistakenly believe that I'm wrong for asking them to leave.......

I can just shoot them all in the head?

After all, they're on my property.

That's the only fact that matters, right?
 

OC for ME

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Is this really the only fact that matters?

<snip>
Attempting to have readers believe that I state one thing when I clearly do not is disingenuous. The context of that post clearly indicates that the fact, that I refer to, is the status of the gravel bar as either private or public property. Anyway, for the benefit of other readers, I will indulge you.

If Elder v. Delcour is the basis to determine whether Crocker was on his property, which would bolster his SD claim, then yes, that is the only fact (the status of the gravel bar) that matters before the specific facts of the SD event are investigated/adjudicated.

If Crocker is found to be on his land, trespassers are told to leave and they do not, they (some number of them) pick up rocks and confront a armed property owner, and one of the trespassers assaults (grabs) the property owner, then Crocker will have a easier time justifying his SD claim. It seems that these are some of the the essential, and seemingly agreed to facts at this time. The status of the crowd as either trespassers or citizens in a place they have a right to be is the single fact that will either possibly get Crocker of the hook or send him to the Big House for a long time.

You may do no your property as you see fit. Read all of my posts and I clearly and unequivocally state the opposite of you claim I state.
 

Superlite27

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If Crocker is found to be on his land, trespassers are told to leave and they do not, they (some number of them) pick up rocks and confront a armed property owner, and one of the trespassers assaults (grabs) the property owner, then Crocker will have a easier time justifying his SD claim..

I can agree with this. These additional details beyond the fact that the person shot was just "on his property" will be what decides his fate. What occurred and didn't occur on that gravel bar are facts still being investigated.

However, I still maintain that some facts trump others and the statement, "I just shot the one closest to me." is not a fact that will prove beneficial to the accused.

I can see the grey areas though. If a group of thugs try to break into my house with loaded firearms, and I "shoot the one closest to me" which happens to be the unarmed getaway driver, the self defense question is pretty ambiguous. Legally, the driver is involved with the crime, therefore, committing a forcible felony, right?

The question of the lawfulness of the landowner could be determined by the legality of the person who was shot.

If the group of people were committing a crime by refusal to leave the property, would this include the dead guy in the group of law breakers (similar to a getaway driver being included with a bunch of armed robbers)?

They were picking up rocks and threatening the land owner. Would the unarmed guy be considered a party to the crime regardless of his posession of a rock?

Where does this grey area end? What takes precedence? The fact that the person shot wasn't armed, therefore not an immediate threat to warrant self-defense, OR the fact that he was in the party of people threatening the land owner, therefore included in the crime?
 

marshaul

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However, I still maintain that some facts trump others and the statement, "I just shot the one closest to me." is not a fact that will prove beneficial to the accused.

You're placing way too much emphasis on this statement.

Imagine you're being threatened by a large group, armed with melee weapons. It comes down to kill or be killed: who do you shoot first? The guy nervously hanging back?

And then there's the little detail that the "guy closest to him" also happened to be the guy grabbing for his gun.

"I shot the one closest to me" is a statement of fact, not motivation. "Just" is an indicator of temporal proximity, not thought processes.
 
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Superlite27

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"I shot the one closest to me" is a statement of fact, not motivation. "Just" is an indicator of temporal proximity, not thought processes.

I can see temporal proximity as an explanation, just not a very good one. If "just" is, indeed an indicator of temporal proximity, it could be replaced with a synonym and still make sense.

"Moments ago, I shot the one next to me."

"Right before I made this statement, I shot the one next to me."

"Previously, I shot the one next to me."

All are different indicators of temporal proximity synonymous with "just", and although they do form complete sentences, they don't have the same coherence as if we replaced the synonym for "just" meaning temporal proximity with a synonym for "just" meaning thought processes.

"I up and shot the one next to me."

"Out of the blue, I shot the one next to me."

"After making a random selection, I shot the one next to me."

I believe the statement that he "just shot the one next to him", is more an indicator of thought processes answering the question of why and how he decided which person to shoot than a statement of when he performed the action of shooting.

However, this is a very vague arguement. Kind of like arguing what the definition of "is" is.

"I just bought a new car." is most likely an indicator of temporal proximity.

"I just bought the damned thing." is most likely an indicator of thought processes.

Similarly, "I just shot a man who threatened me" is different than, "I just shot the one next to me".

It's really fuzzy, but the difference is there.

Of course, that's the strange thing about analyzing the actions and statements of people. We'll never know the absolute truth. We'll simply have to form our own opinions of it.
 

LMTD

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I am going to strongly agree with Superlite on this one, the statements made by the shooter post event do NOT look good for him IMHO either.
 

MAC702

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I am going to strongly agree with Superlite on this one, the statements made by the shooter post event do NOT look good for him IMHO either.

Do you mean to tell me that the guy who thought he was in the right might get in trouble because he voluntarily talked to the police?

Nah, can't happen.
 

OC for ME

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Elder v. Delcour is arguably case law. First statute law must be read.
Trespassing, assault, shooting someone, and associated weapons offenses. Or, a justified SD case because a landowner reasonable believed his life was in danger from a large crowd of aggressive, and likely intoxicated, trespassers.

"But what exactly is the clearly recognizable area over which the stream flows? Where exactly does the public use easement stop? There are no statutes regarding river access rights, the subject lies entirely in case law. The Office of the Missouri Attorney General, the highest law enforcement agency in the land, says they can not answer because they have not been asked through the proper channels. "We are not going to be able to resolve this question, because we have not been asked to formally," said an attorney general's office spokesman."

http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/...cle_c7fd3980-f655-11e2-baa9-0019bb2963f4.html

Meramec River - Crawford County - non-navigable, Slovensky v. O'Reilly, Mo., 233 S.W. 478 (1921);

http://ago.mo.gov/opinions/1971/264-71.htm
That Daily Journal dude can't or won't read Elder v. Delcour. That article misrepresents Elder v. Delcour and I believe the misreading was intentional. Also, no cites to abunch of claims he makes.

Read the originally linked documents in the OP.

The beds of all navigable rivers are owned by the public, while land subjacent (under the water) to non-navigable rivers is owned by the adjoining riparian landowners. (Elder v. Delcour)
Whether or not Crocker was justified in shooting Dart is for a jury to determine. Crocker claiming trespassing, the crowd claiming public land is the first element that Crocker must settle if he has any chance to stay out of the Big House.

The floaters were clearly trespassing in my view. How Crocker dealt with those trespassers is not how I would deal with trespassers on my land. Some number of folks picking up rocks would not warrant any gun play on my part. I would start tanking pictures, and keeping a eye on that crowd until LE arrived, from a safe distance of course.

What happens to Crocker is of no interest to me as long as his case does not change Missouri SD laws for the worse.
 

mspgunner

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Accounts of the incident in the "PRESS" may have nothinbg to do with what happend. Fortunately we do not have trial by "press".
We've seen this so often, everything said is speculation.
Don't vindicate or convict based on a "press" release. '
We know what it does to OC, we should be better than that!
 
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