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Thread: Carry on the Water

  1. #1
    Regular Member sigfan's Avatar
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    Carry on the Water

    Long story short:

    I have a boat. How should I think about carry while in the water? I am in uncharted territory for myself here. Am I legal in the lakes? In the sound? Anywhere as long as I don't dock? What's the story? Thanks in advance.
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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Me too

    You are legal on the water, the same RCWs apply; it matters not if you are docked or underway.
    FWIW I have had many good encounters at the boat ramp, and sometimes, a little crab goes a long way.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Good rule of thumb

    1) Are there any laws that prohibit it?
    2) Are there any laws that restrict it?
    3) Private vs public

    I would check the RCW to see if a boat is defined as a motor vehicle. If it is then you have to have a CPL to carry loaded or concealed.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Use a lanyard. Or keep track of how many tragic boating accidents you have.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  5. #5
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    Carry on the Water

    Make sure you don't enter Canadian water if your in the north sound.


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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger54 View Post
    Make sure you don't enter Canadian water if your in the north sound.
    What does that have to do with OC?

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Carry on the Water

    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    What does that have to do with OC?
    You cant bring guns to Canada. You can't OC what you can't have.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    I would check the RCW to see if a boat is defined as a motor vehicle. If it is then you have to have a CPL to carry loaded or concealed.
    It would be a moot point considering that being on a boat is a decidedly outdoor activity, and under 9.41.060 it exempts the concealed prohibition from 9.41.050.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    You cant bring guns to Canada. You can't OC what you can't have.
    I was making a joke about avoiding Canadian waters, regardless of whether or not you're carrying.

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.060: Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms
    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;
    I would consult a lawyer/attorney view this or research and case law. If a boat is a motor vehicle just like a car then you will need a CPl. Cuz you use a car to travel to and from. Boating is a recreational activity but is driving/riding in a boat only considered to be one of the "recreational activity such as...." activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I would consult a lawyer/attorney view this or research and case law. If a boat is a motor vehicle just like a car then you will need a CPl. Cuz you use a car to travel to and from. Boating is a recreational activity but is driving/riding in a boat only considered to be one of the "recreational activity such as...." activities.
    Generally speaking people don't take a boat to commute to work. They don't take a boat to pick the kids up from school. You don't see boats cruising around the local mall parking lot. While they may seem like a motor vehicle and are registered like one, boating is most definitely an "outdoor activity". After all, I've never seen someone water skiing inside a mall or the Mariners stadium. Most people use a boat to ski, fish, crab, diving or just to cruise around the sound looking at the sights, like hiking on the water.

    The term "such as" means that the list of recreational activities includes that listed but is not limited to.
    Here's my compromise. Boat on land, have your CPL to carry loaded. Boat on water, yea for outdoor activities.
    Last edited by sirpuma; 07-24-2013 at 04:34 PM.

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Boats are included in the definition of motor vehicles in RCW, with the exception of Washington State Ferries which have their specific definition as being part of the highway system that carries vehicles.
    Correct. If a bicycle is considered a vehicle for purposes of 9.41, it is a safe bet that a boat qualifies as one, as well.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    Correct. If a bicycle is considered a vehicle for purposes of 9.41, it is a safe bet that a boat qualifies as one, as well.
    And definitely don't operate a boat while "poo-poo faced". Armed or not.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So, by the same argument, then... if I am driving or riding in a convertible (car) for no other reason than enjoyment of a nice day, would I be exempt because I was enganged in a recreational outdoor activity?
    Works for me. Maybe not for the cop that stops you though
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Now the only definition of vehicle I can find in state law (RCW 46.04.670) does not seem to include boats (or trains for that matter) it includes any vehicle capable of being moved or drawn upon a public highway, and does not include any device except a bicycle powered exclusively by human or animal power...
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now the only definition of vehicle I can find in state law (RCW 46.04.670) does not seem to include boats (or trains for that matter) it includes any vehicle capable of being moved or drawn upon a public highway, and does not include any device except a bicycle powered exclusively by human or animal power...
    See RCW 46.70.011, which defines 'motor vehicle' with the definition provided I would say a boat would apply. However, you need to scope the definition to the respected sections of code. I could not tell what you were trying to look up.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 46.70.011
    (9) "Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails, and which is required to be registered and titled under this title.

    (16) "Vehicle" means and includes every device capable of being moved upon a public highway and in, upon, or by which any persons or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway, excepting devices moved by human or animal power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 07-26-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    See RCW 46.70.011, which defines 'motor vehicle' with the definition provided I would say a boat would apply. However, you need to scope the definition to the respected sections of code. I could not tell what you were trying to look up.
    but the RCW 9.41.050 does not prohibit one from from carrying a firearm on a motor vehicle it prohibits one from carrying in a Vehicle
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    but the RCW 9.41.050 does not prohibit one from from carrying a firearm on a motor vehicle it prohibits one from carrying in a Vehicle
    The 'vehicle' definition may apply to a boat if the state considers the waterways a public highway... Just thinking out loud. I have not looked into it.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now the only definition of vehicle I can find in state law (RCW 46.04.670) does not seem to include boats (or trains for that matter) it includes any vehicle capable of being moved or drawn upon a public highway, and does not include any device except a bicycle powered exclusively by human or animal power...
    Watercraft are defined as "vessels" and are regulated by RCW 79A.60.xxx.

    Since "vehicle" is not defined in RCW 9.41, the courts will look to a dictionary, which defines it as: 1. any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.

    Although RCW 46.61.502 - Driving under the influence refers only to "vehicles" and not "vessels," DUI in a boat is prosecuted just as if the act occurred in an automobile.

    Courts are not bound by the definition of "vehicle" for purposes of Title 46 when determining what a "vehicle" is for the purposes of other titles in the RCWs. I'm pretty sure that a court will consider a "vessel" a "vehicle" for purposes of Title 9. But, if you want to test it, let me know how that works for you.
    Last edited by rapgood; 07-26-2013 at 07:04 PM.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  20. #20
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    Watercraft are defined as "vessels" and are regulated by RCW 79A.60.xxx.

    Since "vehicle" is not defined in RCW 9.41, the courts will look to a dictionary, which defines it as: 1. any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.

    Although RCW 46.61.502 - Driving under the influence refers only to "vehicles" and not "vessels," DUI in a boat is prosecuted just as if the act occurred in an automobile.

    Courts are not bound by the definition of "vehicle" for purposes of Title 46 when determining what a "vehicle" is for the purposes of other titles in the RCWs. I'm pretty sure that a court will consider a "vessel" a "vehicle" for purposes of Title 9. But, if you want to test it, let me know how that works for you.
    But DUI in a boat is not charged under 46.61.502...it's charged under 79A.60.040

    Still I believe you enough not to attempt carry on a boat until I get a CPL....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  21. #21
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    But DUI in a boat is not charged under 46.61.502...it's charged under 79A.60.040
    Yep. You're right (haven't done a DUI for boats).

    Still I believe you enough not to attempt carry on a boat until I get a CPL....
    Good, because RCW § 9.91.020 states:

    Every person who, being employed upon any railway, as engineer, motorman, gripman, conductor, switch tender, fireman, bridge tender, flagger, or signalman, or having charge of stations, starting, regulating or running trains upon a railway, or being employed as captain, engineer or other officer of a vessel propelled by steam, or being the driver of any animal or vehicle upon any public highway, street, or other public place, is intoxicated while engaged in the discharge of any such duties, shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    And, although part of RCW 9.91.020 was impliedly repealed by the subsequent enactment of RCW 46.61.502 (as held in State v. Wilson, 39 Wn. App. 883, 885 (1985)), 9.91.020 was reenacted in SUBSTITUTE SENATE BILL 5077, Chapter 23, Laws of 2013, overcoming any implication of repeal. If the legislature had wanted to repeal it, this would have been the opportunity. However, 46.61.502 is expressly limited to vehicles on highways (RCW 46.61.005(2)) and 9.91.020 has a wider reach.

    Which pretty much, although not dispositively, gives the court a peg to hang its hat on that a boat is a "vehicle" when someone is being prosecuted under Title 9.41 for unlawful carry.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    Yep. You're right (haven't done a DUI for boats).



    Good, because RCW § 9.91.020 states:

    Every person who, being employed upon any railway, as engineer, motorman, gripman, conductor, switch tender, fireman, bridge tender, flagger, or signalman, or having charge of stations, starting, regulating or running trains upon a railway, or being employed as captain, engineer or other officer of a vessel propelled by steam, or being the driver of any animal or vehicle upon any public highway, street, or other public place, is intoxicated while engaged in the discharge of any such duties, shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    And, although part of RCW 9.91.020 was impliedly repealed by the subsequent enactment of RCW 46.61.502 (as held in State v. Wilson, 39 Wn. App. 883, 885 (1985)), 9.91.020 was reenacted in SUBSTITUTE SENATE BILL 5077, Chapter 23, Laws of 2013, overcoming any implication of repeal. If the legislature had wanted to repeal it, this would have been the opportunity. However, 46.61.502 is expressly limited to vehicles on highways (RCW 46.61.005(2)) and 9.91.020 has a wider reach.

    Which pretty much, although not dispositively, gives the court a peg to hang its hat on that a boat is a "vehicle" when someone is being prosecuted under Title 9.41 for unlawful carry.
    Then it would not apply to ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) powered vessels.

    The effect of the law in cases where wording is used such as it was here, it limited to what is listed.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Update---

    Washington's new BUI law takes effect today.

    Summer has finally arrived in the Pacific Northwest, and with it will be boats and boating families on lakes all across the USA. But if you plan on boating on lakes in Washington State, the Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission would like to remind you that there’s a new boating under the influence (BUI) law coming into effect as of July 28th, 2013. Although the current laws state that boating under the influence is a misdemeanor, with the new BUI law the classification will become a gross misdemeanor. In addition, the new laws have added an implied consent factor which states that anyone who is suspected of operating a boat under the influence in Washington state will be required to undergo BAC testing. If the individual refuses to take the test, they will be guilty of a Class 1 civil infraction and must pay up $1000 in fines. Longer duration of jail time is now on the agenda with Washington State’s new BUI laws, and an offender will be punished with up to 364 days in prison and be required to pay up to $5000 in fines. It’s the hope of Washington lawmakers and the U.S. Coast Guard that the new BUI laws will decrease the amount of irresponsible boaters and make the water safe for everyone looking for a bit of summer fun. - See more at: http://www.lifesafer.com/blog/new-bo....BhuA4pwm.dpuf
    About the only difference now between the two, Cars and Boats, is that you can drink while operating a boat where you get nailed for open containers in a car.

    Better not cross that .08 line though so make sure that beer lasts all day
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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