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Thread: Interesting idea on how to protect yourself if you open carry and the police respond

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    Interesting idea on how to protect yourself if you open carry and the police respond


  2. #2
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    It appears that he did a good job. Hopefully he forwarded a copy of his attorney's letter to the manager of the restaurant. It might be an interesting test to have a letter like this putting the local police on notice as well that if one of their officers attempts to detain or arrest him that they can expect legal action against that officer and the department. After all, police are not supposed to break law either.... are they.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law. Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.

    Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.

    This is why state preemption is so important regardless of where you live. Needing to know how the law changes as you cross the street is crazy. (More people are injured and killed by motor vehicles than by firearms, but do the driving laws change as you move from city to village? No!)

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law.
    I hope this is sarcasm. Cops cannot legally detain someone without RAS.

    Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.
    Cite? Supreme court has ruled on this specific issue. No reasonable suspicion from a phone call.
    Florida v J.L.

    And to add, they cant stop your car just to see if you have a DL, IMHO, they cannot stop an OC'er just to see if they are legal.

    Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.
    Agreed. All wasted resources when dealing with private property. While I believe knowledge is power, most of the time, dealing with an anti freedom restaurant manager/owner is like pulling teeth. And it only ends when you have no teeth left to pull.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 07-24-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    It seems that the phone caller was not anonymous. Thus FL v. J.L. likely would not apply. The video making person should understand that a "good faith" phone caller making a phone call to the cops who knows that OC is unlawful, or believes it is, but does not know there is a exception or a defense against prosecution will not be prosecuted.

    OC with a CCW permit is a exception to the prohibition to OC in my little town and thus a cop should not stop you just cuz he sees a gun OC. OC, and RAS is not present because the OCer must be presumed to be holding a CCW permit, the DL rule. Why else would a citizen OC if he does not have a CCW permit? Now, if the OCer does any little thing, spit on the sidewalk for example, to get the cop all in a twitter then RAS will be claimed to check for a permit.

    Some localities give a defense against prosecution, the OCer is breaking the law and must display his stay outta jail card. OC, and RAS is present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I hope this is sarcasm. Cops cannot legally detain someone without RAS.
    No, it wasn't sarcasm. Read it again using a more expansive perspective/less literal. In fact, your comment aligns very well with his.



    Separately, cite please. You made a statement about the law. Rule 5 requires you to cite applicable law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law. Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.

    Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.

    This is why state preemption is so important regardless of where you live. Needing to know how the law changes as you cross the street is crazy. (More people are injured and killed by motor vehicles than by firearms, but do the driving laws change as you move from city to village? No!)

    stay safe.

    I'm not so sure your legal analysis will work out in his state.

    Separately, the citizen busybody didn't report a possible crime, she asserted to the police and restaurant manager a definite crime.

    The whole letter thing sounds a little tenuous to me, but why not do it? It might deter the anti-gunner from doing it again.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Florida vs. Regalado......you cannot glean by mere observation if someone has a permit or not so detaining is against the 4th.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Details reported by the caller

    Set aside for a moment Oregon City requirements of legal open carry. The caller may not know what the legal requirements are and as such may simply be reporting what is perceived as unlawful activity. What we really need to know is what the caller reported.

    For arguments sake let us presume the caller embellished the report and reported a man waving around a gun while the gun owner sat quietly enjoying his dinner. This scenario would clearly be a misuse of the emergency reporting system and would likely land the caller in hot water.

    I cannot see the value or logic of a lawyer sending a letter to the caller if the report was merely a man with a gun. There seems to be something missing or untold.

    ~Whitney
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    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    What the guy has done is put the caller on notice that she was wrong and that further issues will result in criminal and civil action. I'm sure that letter was delivered with signature confirmation. The caller got her one chance to be ignorant of the law. Game over. And for bonus points, if they can prove she was espousing this type of harassing behavior, case closed.
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    I was going to make a video recommending that you cover yourself with live dogs ... but on 2nd thought, it would likely not be effective in preventing cops from shooting at oneself.


    Maybe cats ? (like anyone cares about them getting shot)

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