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Interesting idea on how to protect yourself if you open carry and the police respond

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
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May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
It appears that he did a good job. Hopefully he forwarded a copy of his attorney's letter to the manager of the restaurant. It might be an interesting test to have a letter like this putting the local police on notice as well that if one of their officers attempts to detain or arrest him that they can expect legal action against that officer and the department. After all, police are not supposed to break law either.... are they.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 15, 2007
Messages
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Valhalla
Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law. Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.

Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.

This is why state preemption is so important regardless of where you live. Needing to know how the law changes as you cross the street is crazy. (More people are injured and killed by motor vehicles than by firearms, but do the driving laws change as you move from city to village? No!)

stay safe.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law.

I hope this is sarcasm. Cops cannot legally detain someone without RAS.

Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.
Cite? Supreme court has ruled on this specific issue. No reasonable suspicion from a phone call.
Florida v J.L.

And to add, they cant stop your car just to see if you have a DL, IMHO, they cannot stop an OC'er just to see if they are legal.

Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.

Agreed. All wasted resources when dealing with private property. While I believe knowledge is power, most of the time, dealing with an anti freedom restaurant manager/owner is like pulling teeth. And it only ends when you have no teeth left to pull.
 
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OC for ME

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
It seems that the phone caller was not anonymous. Thus FL v. J.L. likely would not apply. The video making person should understand that a "good faith" phone caller making a phone call to the cops who knows that OC is unlawful, or believes it is, but does not know there is a exception or a defense against prosecution will not be prosecuted.

OC with a CCW permit is a exception to the prohibition to OC in my little town and thus a cop should not stop you just cuz he sees a gun OC. OC, and RAS is not present because the OCer must be presumed to be holding a CCW permit, the DL rule. Why else would a citizen OC if he does not have a CCW permit? Now, if the OCer does any little thing, spit on the sidewalk for example, to get the cop all in a twitter then RAS will be claimed to check for a permit.

Some localities give a defense against prosecution, the OCer is breaking the law and must display his stay outta jail card. OC, and RAS is present.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
I hope this is sarcasm. Cops cannot legally detain someone without RAS.

No, it wasn't sarcasm. Read it again using a more expansive perspective/less literal. In fact, your comment aligns very well with his.



Separately, cite please. You made a statement about the law. Rule 5 requires you to cite applicable law.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Cops need to detain you to find out if you are in fact breaking a law. Their RAS comes from the phone call - at least in this case there was no way the caller could know he had his CPL and OCing without having one is in fact a violation.

Getting attorneys to write letters is a good way to give money to attorneys. But it does nothing about the behavior of the caller - misdemeanor committed against this guy as well as a civil tort or two by the caller. Go apply for a warrant or get the public prosecuter on record as declining to seek a warrant. Sue the caller and settle for an admission of wrong-doing, $1 in damages, and costs.

This is why state preemption is so important regardless of where you live. Needing to know how the law changes as you cross the street is crazy. (More people are injured and killed by motor vehicles than by firearms, but do the driving laws change as you move from city to village? No!)

stay safe.


I'm not so sure your legal analysis will work out in his state.

Separately, the citizen busybody didn't report a possible crime, she asserted to the police and restaurant manager a definite crime.

The whole letter thing sounds a little tenuous to me, but why not do it? It might deter the anti-gunner from doing it again.
 

Whitney

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
435
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
Details reported by the caller

Set aside for a moment Oregon City requirements of legal open carry. The caller may not know what the legal requirements are and as such may simply be reporting what is perceived as unlawful activity. What we really need to know is what the caller reported.

For arguments sake let us presume the caller embellished the report and reported a man waving around a gun while the gun owner sat quietly enjoying his dinner. This scenario would clearly be a misuse of the emergency reporting system and would likely land the caller in hot water.

I cannot see the value or logic of a lawyer sending a letter to the caller if the report was merely a man with a gun. There seems to be something missing or untold.

~Whitney
 

paramedic70002

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
1,440
Location
Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
What the guy has done is put the caller on notice that she was wrong and that further issues will result in criminal and civil action. I'm sure that letter was delivered with signature confirmation. The caller got her one chance to be ignorant of the law. Game over. And for bonus points, if they can prove she was espousing this type of harassing behavior, case closed.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I was going to make a video recommending that you cover yourself with live dogs ... but on 2nd thought, it would likely not be effective in preventing cops from shooting at oneself.


Maybe cats ? (like anyone cares about them getting shot) :rolleyes:
 
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