Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: National Forest OC?

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    National Forest OC?

    I just read a mini-update from VCDL (Virginia Citizen's Defense League) about the son of one of their members:

    "A member's son is in hot water for open carrying in a national forest. In Virginia, only concealed carry with a valid CHP is allowed in a national forest. (Don't look at me, gun control never makes any sense.) We are watching how the case evolves. Details are scarce right now.

    Looks like it may be time for VCDL to push to get this fixed to allow unlicensed open carry of a handgun as long as such handgun is not being used to hunt.

    Carry in a national forest is controlled by the state, not the feds.

    The code is in the Admin Code of Virginia: 4VAC15-40-60 (G provides the exemption for CHP holder to carry CONCEALED)."

    (bolding is mine)

    So... my question is: what are KY's laws regarding carry (OC or CC) in a National Forest? (Red River Gorge?)

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    So... my question is: what are KY's laws regarding carry (OC or CC) in a National Forest? (Red River Gorge?)

    Thanks!
    There is no blanket statute for national parks/forests that I am aware of. Remember though, State agencies does not fall under Kentucky's preemption law so they may have their own rules/regulation in place. Contact the park/forest you wish to attend to find out about their rules in the matter.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    It depends on which NF you are referring to. Not only may you carry in Daniel Boone National Forest, but you may shoot there, as well. Land Between the Lakes, on the other hand, officially, does not allow carry.

    KY has no law regarding carry on US Forest Service. I can't speak to VA law. Regarding the federal enforcement of federal prohibition against firearms (such as LBL), I believe they are on shaky ground and I would be surprised if anyone is prosecuted for it. The prohibition of firearms in a place like LBL is based on land protection regulations. Essentially, they took one random statute and took great latitude in interpreting it.

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    There is no blanket statute for national parks/forests that I am aware of. Remember though, State agencies does not fall under Kentucky's preemption law so they may have their own rules/regulation in place. Contact the park/forest you wish to attend to find out about their rules in the matter.
    What???

    It was my understanding that KY's preemption was was VERY strong - preempting every governmental entity from overriding state law...? You're saying that's not correct?

    I appreciate your other suggestion, but I definitely won't contact the park/forest because as far as I'm concerned that's about as reliable as calling a police department to find out what the law is.

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    It depends on which NF you are referring to. Not only may you carry in Daniel Boone National Forest, but you may shoot there, as well. Land Between the Lakes, on the other hand, officially, does not allow carry.

    KY has no law regarding carry on US Forest Service. I can't speak to VA law. Regarding the federal enforcement of federal prohibition against firearms (such as LBL), I believe they are on shaky ground and I would be surprised if anyone is prosecuted for it. The prohibition of firearms in a place like LBL is based on land protection regulations. Essentially, they took one random statute and took great latitude in interpreting it.
    Whose land is LBL? US Army Corp of Engineers? If so, I can understand (legally - but of course not agree with) the rule.
    Last edited by BB62; 07-25-2013 at 04:45 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    LBL is under the US Forest Service which I believe is under the Dept. of Ag. There is a recent thread about this.

    Again, as far as Red River Gorge is concerned, it is very common to carry a firearm there.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    USFS assimilates state law on National Forest lands. In Virginia, that means concealed with a license only, because VA has that quirk in their state law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    @Craig With National Parks, you're right, but apparently that isn't the case with National Forests.

  9. #9
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    What???

    It was my understanding that KY's preemption was was VERY strong - preempting every governmental entity from overriding state law...? You're saying that's not correct?

    I appreciate your other suggestion, but I definitely won't contact the park/forest because as far as I'm concerned that's about as reliable as calling a police department to find out what the law is.
    It is.

    Only the legislative body of the state may make laws concerning concealed firearms. Very specific governing bodies of local governments may enact ordinances to prohibit the carrying of CONCEALED firearms inside buildings they control, but they must abide by strict signage requirements and other requirements. Even if a local government does prohibit concealed firearms in buildings they control, we can still ignore the prohibition and carry concealed regardless because it is NOT a criminal offense. This is the only restriction they are allowed to maintain other than their ability to prohibit the discharge of firearms by ordinance.

    As for openly carried firearms, our Constitution protects this right from being infringed upon, as does firearm preemption.

    The State has no laws concerning the carrying of firearms openly in State or national parks
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It is.

    Only the legislative body of the state may make laws concerning concealed firearms. Very specific governing bodies of local governments may enact ordinances to prohibit the carrying of CONCEALED firearms inside buildings they control, but they must abide by strict signage requirements and other requirements. Even if a local government does prohibit concealed firearms in buildings they control, we can still ignore the prohibition and carry concealed regardless because it is NOT a criminal offense. This is the only restriction they are allowed to maintain other than their ability to prohibit the discharge of firearms by ordinance.

    As for openly carried firearms, our Constitution protects this right from being infringed upon, as does firearm preemption.

    The State has no laws concerning the carrying of firearms openly in State or national parks
    Wow. Thanks for your detailed reply. Evidently the law is somewhat different than Virginia, where as I understand it, the state has FULL preemption of OC and CC.

    Clearly, KY law has a few twists and turns I didn't realize the full implications of - which raises a few more questions: 1) what is the penalty for CCing in a government building (and did the legislators miss the "no penalty" part?), and 2) what are the specific entities you referred to? I know that quasi-governmental bodies were an issue at one time (Greater Cincinnati Airport - CVG).

    Thanks again.

    Evidently,

  11. #11
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Wow. Thanks for your detailed reply. Evidently the law is somewhat different than Virginia, where as I understand it, the state has FULL preemption of OC and CC.

    Clearly, KY law has a few twists and turns I didn't realize the full implications of - which raises a few more questions: 1) what is the penalty for CCing in a government building (and did the legislators miss the "no penalty" part?), and 2) what are the specific entities you referred to? I know that quasi-governmental bodies were an issue at one time (Greater Cincinnati Airport - CVG).

    Thanks again.

    Evidently,
    They only have one option, to ask you to leave (go outside). If you correct the problem then you are no longer in violation of the law and can resume any other lawful activity.

    Most government bodies that can own/lease real property that is ruled by a legislative body can limit concealed carry in their buildings.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    @Craig With National Parks, you're right, but apparently that isn't the case with National Forests.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    USFS has traditionally assimilated state law in all National Forests, with the exception of some administrative rules like "no loaded guns in USFS campgrounds".

    National Parks, under an entirely different department, banned all guns that weren't "unloaded, broken down, and securely cased", and they didn't care what state law said until the credit card reform act of 2009(?), where the law changed to require National Parks to respect state law.

    In places where USFS bans guns, it's usually a correlation with state hunting bans. It's not intended for defensive sidearms, but the dweebs writing the regs seldom think of how it can be applied beyond hunters.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    I'm just relaying the information provided from LBL. They were very clear that firearms were prohibited by law. When I asked for the law citation, they provided a regulation that had nothing to do with firearms. If you were confronted and arrested, I think you would ultimately prevail, however, there is no preemption to protect you and you would have a formidable legal battle to fight.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •