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Thread: Has anyone ever asked a LEO thier veiws of OC?

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    Regular Member roushstang99's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever asked a LEO thier veiws of OC?

    Has anyone ever asked a LEO their view of OC?

    Since I just started to OC , I thought I would ask a cop friend of mine what his thoughts where on the subject. I asked him as a LEO would you rather see a citizen OC or CC? He said "OC of course, that way he already knows he is armed. If I see someone OC I leave them be unless we receive a call from someone about it. Then just because its part of my job to check it them out." Then I asked if you were not at LEO would you OC or CC. He said " OC because a criminal is less likely to mess with or attack if they see you are armed and go after some one who they think may not be armed. Criminals look for easy targets and don't want to be shot themselves. "

    So has anyone ever asked ? What was their answer or concerns?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Your friend is well informed beyond what the law might say.

    Normally I wouldn't ask a LEO that question - at least not one I did not know well. To do so solicits a personal opinion which should not enter into the equation of how he will do his job.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Besides the fact that you should not base your decisions, especially those that might have a major impact, on the personal opinions of others. There are hundreds of LEOs in NC, you would get hundreds of opinions. Research the law, then make a rational decision on what is best for you, based on logic.
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    Re: Has anyone ever asked a LEO thier veiws of OC?

    My dad, who was a LEO, isn't find of me oc'ing although he couldn't tell me exactly why. A friend of mine who is Everett pd told me it was a bad idea because you'd be the first victim in a crime. 2 other friends of mine who are police didn't care too much one way or another.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    My dad, who was a LEO, isn't find of me oc'ing although he couldn't tell me exactly why. A friend of mine who is Everett pd told me it was a bad idea because you'd be the first victim in a crime. 2 other friends of mine who are police didn't care too much one way or another.
    Not that urban myth again

    Ask him for a list of cites - just don't hold your breath waiting. Been disproven too many time before.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I've never asked, but I've OC'd around several of them with no issues.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I live in Washington... but I have asked several LEOs the opinion on Open Carry....

    the top 5 I got...

    Police Chief of a small town near me: "open carry is legal, officers shouldn't harass people obeying the law"

    Port Orchard (WA) Police Officer:"if anyone feels threatened I can make an arrest" (note: the law does not say that, and he's never actually carried out that threat to the best of my knowledge)

    Kitsap County Deputy: "I don't understand why anyone would, I mean if you're hunting that's one thing, but I don't understand why anyone would in public, however it's not an issue for me and I won't harass people for it"

    Washington State Trooper: I think concealed carry is better, but open carry is a right, and I support it as such

    Seattle Police Officer (Sergeant): "I never had a problem with open carriers, I have a dislike of people who keep calling them in and wasting our dispatcher's time, I wish KING5 (the local news station) would run a PSA telling people not to do that"

    so as you can see, most in my area do not prefer people open carry, but rarely does it actually make problems.

    your mileage may vary.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 07-26-2013 at 06:05 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    --snipped--

    your mileage may vary.
    Not by much it won't.

    It's a lot like patterning a shotgun. Some pellets may hit the X. Most won't, though many will be grouped to make the pattern obvious. Sometimes reading the flyers is just as important.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Political leanings of the top cop and the city administration tend to set the tone for cops when they engage a OCer, or even if a cop will engage a OCer. It is up to the voting public to elect folks who respect our liberties. This will lead to elected officials appointing/hiring liberty respecting top cops. A good example is the county sheriff.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Political leanings of the top cop and the city administration tend to set the tone for cops when they engage a OCer, or even if a cop will engage a OCer. It is up to the voting public to elect folks who respect our liberties. This will lead to elected officials appointing/hiring liberty respecting top cops. A good example is the county sheriff.
    Agree. The buck may stop at the top, but the chaff originates from on high.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roushstang99 View Post
    Has anyone ever asked a LEO their view of OC?

    Since I just started to OC , I thought I would ask a cop friend of mine what his thoughts where on the subject. I asked him as a LEO would you rather see a citizen OC or CC? He said "OC of course, that way he already knows he is armed. If I see someone OC I leave them be unless we receive a call from someone about it. Then just because its part of my job to check it them out." Then I asked if you were not at LEO would you OC or CC. He said " OC because a criminal is less likely to mess with or attack if they see you are armed and go after some one who they think may not be armed. Criminals look for easy targets and don't want to be shot themselves. "

    So has anyone ever asked ? What was their answer or concerns?

    My, my. What a nice police officer. (slight sarcasm) He's willing to not bother people exercising an enumerated right. But, as soon as he has a slight pretext, he's willing to act like suspicion legitimately attaches to that activity. Using the Nuremburg justification--its part of his job.

    I wonder if these cops have any clue they're indicting their entire chain of command by confessing its part of the job to cast suspicion on a fundamental human right.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-26-2013 at 12:47 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Political leanings of the top cop and the city administration tend to set the tone for cops when they engage a OCer, or even if a cop will engage a OCer. It is up to the voting public to elect folks who respect our liberties. This will lead to elected officials appointing/hiring liberty respecting top cops. A good example is the county sheriff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Agree. The buck may stop at the top, but the chaff originates from on high.
    This is Truth! The "City of Subdued Excitement" is currently being run by a MAIG member. There are city council members who have great disdain for Armed Citizens. I have sat in meetings with the Deputy Chief where she stated "gun=bad guy".

    Does this mean we are getting resistance from above? Yes. Does this mean we should "back off"? No. We will persevere because we have the Constitution and the Law on our side.

    The deputy Chief has come around a bit. She now defends OC law instead of impeding it. We are working on the mayor and the city council. Don't forget to vote in next weeks election.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    I have asked our local LEOs.....

    after asking about 5 or 6 of them (I'm in a very small town), the reply is a unanimous 'yes' to OC.
    However, the last 2 I talked to about OC got very iffy about how to handle someone OC'ing and not willing to ID themselves (after they get a call).
    I was told by a Sgt. (who was filling in for the evening...he doesn't work in this town) that I COULD (but "might not") be charged under NCGS 14-223, if I refuse to ID myself "after they get a call and an officer asks me for my information".
    Well, not to be dissuaded ... I looked it up. It's a pretty easy Google search. It says if I "willfully AND unlawfully resist, delay, or obstruct (an officer's investigation)" then I am guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Well, I find that to be quite interesting b/c NC is not a Stop and ID state, therefore I shall not be committing any unlawful act (by not ID'ing) if I am not suspected of committing a crime.
    I will call our Chief next week (a very reasonable person, I might add) and ask "in what ways can I LAWFULLY resist, delay, or obstruct?". I can only think of a couple of ways: refusing a search of my person or property without a warrant (because that would definitely delay any investigation, 4th amendment anyone?), refusing to answer any questions I don't want to answer for any reason (because that would certainly delay any investigation, 5th amendment anyone?). There are probably other means by which I could lawfully resist, delay, or obstruct........I would just like to hear what he can come up with. If the answer is "you can NEVER lawfully do that", then I will inquire about the aforementioned amendments.
    I know this is a little off the topic of this thread, and I'm not trying to derail it. So, please accept my apologies. Does anyone else have any experience or info on NCGS 14-223?

    Stock up and stick together.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by woodypynes View Post
    after asking about 5 or 6 of them (I'm in a very small town), the reply is a unanimous 'yes' to OC.
    However, the last 2 I talked to about OC got very iffy about how to handle someone OC'ing and not willing to ID themselves (after they get a call).
    I was told by a Sgt. (who was filling in for the evening...he doesn't work in this town) that I COULD (but "might not") be charged under NCGS 14-223, if I refuse to ID myself "after they get a call and an officer asks me for my information".
    Well, not to be dissuaded ... I looked it up. It's a pretty easy Google search. It says if I "willfully AND unlawfully resist, delay, or obstruct (an officer's investigation)" then I am guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Well, I find that to be quite interesting b/c NC is not a Stop and ID state, therefore I shall not be committing any unlawful act (by not ID'ing) if unless I am not suspected of committing a crime.
    I will call our Chief next week (a very reasonable person, I might add) and ask "in what ways can I LAWFULLY resist, delay, or obstruct?". I can only think of a couple of ways: refusing a search of my person or property without a warrant (because that would definitely delay any investigation, 4th amendment anyone?), refusing to answer any questions I don't want to answer for any reason (because that would certainly delay any investigation, 5th amendment anyone?). There are probably other means by which I could lawfully resist, delay, or obstruct........I would just like to hear what he can come up with. If the answer is "you can NEVER lawfully do that", then I will inquire about the aforementioned amendments.
    I know this is a little off the topic of this thread, and I'm not trying to derail it. So, please accept my apologies. Does anyone else have any experience or info on NCGS 14-223?

    Stock up and stick together.
    Changed your quote to show that you cannot,, impede an investigation unless their is RAS of a crime worthy of investigating!
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    it is my opinion to never, never, never, never, never ever, never ever, and one more time never, ask a LEO anything.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roushstang99 View Post
    Has anyone ever asked a LEO their view of OC?

    Since I just started to OC , I thought I would ask a cop friend of mine what his thoughts where on the subject. I asked him as a LEO would you rather see a citizen OC or CC? He said "OC of course, that way he already knows he is armed. If I see someone OC I leave them be unless we receive a call from someone about it. Then just because its part of my job to check it them out." Then I asked if you were not at LEO would you OC or CC. He said " OC because a criminal is less likely to mess with or attack if they see you are armed and go after some one who they think may not be armed. Criminals look for easy targets and don't want to be shot themselves. "

    So has anyone ever asked ? What was their answer or concerns?
    I'm an LEO and I support OC. A lot of my coworkers do too. I live in an OC state. Some guys I work with OC.

    This think about never talking to police is silly. We don't bite and we are people too. Go ahead and ask your local cop if he supports OC. You might be surprised at the result

    If somebody calls on an OC'er in my state, we do not check them out. THat would be harassing. We inform the complainant that OC is legal and treat it as an education opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    it is my opinion to never, never, never, never, never ever, never ever, and one more time never, ask a LEO anything.
    Not even, "Am I free to go, officer?"

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodypynes View Post
    after asking about 5 or 6 of them (I'm in a very small town), the reply is a unanimous 'yes' to OC.
    However, the last 2 I talked to about OC got very iffy about how to handle someone OC'ing and not willing to ID themselves (after they get a call).
    I was told by a Sgt. (who was filling in for the evening...he doesn't work in this town) that I COULD (but "might not") be charged under NCGS 14-223, if I refuse to ID myself "after they get a call and an officer asks me for my information".
    Well, not to be dissuaded ... I looked it up. It's a pretty easy Google search. It says if I "willfully AND unlawfully resist, delay, or obstruct (an officer's investigation)" then I am guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Well, I find that to be quite interesting b/c NC is not a Stop and ID state, therefore I shall not be committing any unlawful act (by not ID'ing) if I am not suspected of committing a crime.
    I will call our Chief next week (a very reasonable person, I might add) and ask "in what ways can I LAWFULLY resist, delay, or obstruct?". I can only think of a couple of ways: refusing a search of my person or property without a warrant (because that would definitely delay any investigation, 4th amendment anyone?), refusing to answer any questions I don't want to answer for any reason (because that would certainly delay any investigation, 5th amendment anyone?). There are probably other means by which I could lawfully resist, delay, or obstruct........I would just like to hear what he can come up with. If the answer is "you can NEVER lawfully do that", then I will inquire about the aforementioned amendments.
    I know this is a little off the topic of this thread, and I'm not trying to derail it. So, please accept my apologies. Does anyone else have any experience or info on NCGS 14-223?

    Stock up and stick together.
    You are never obligated of course to answer any questions that incriminate you. THere are rare examples where you can get in trouble for not answering a question if it rises to the level of "rendering criminal assistance", like if a fugitive just ran into your house, you know where he is hiding and you refuse to divulge that info.

    As for refusing a search of your property w/o a warrant. There are plenty of warrant exceptions such as exigency, community caretaking function, hot pursuit, etc. that allow cops to enter your home w/o a warrant. If you obstruct cops who are entering your home and they have valid cause as listed, you can get charged with obstructing (or whatever similar charge your state has).

    What is smart to do is ask. "are you demanding entry or asking for entry?" or something like that. But if the cops are demanding entry and they are lawfully doing so, you can't obstruct them unless you want to risk criminal charges.

    In my experience, I enter homes without a warrant most commonly in DV cases. Mostly,. it's exigency/community caretaking reasons e.g. a neighbor calls because they hear a woman crying "help" in a residence and hear what sounds like something slamming against the wall. When the cops get there, the interior lights turn off and nobody will come to the door.

    Something like that
    Last edited by PALO; 07-27-2013 at 12:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Not even, "Am I free to go, officer?"

    No. Instead ask "Why am I being detained?" You've now put him on the dime; if the answer is that you are not being detained, say goodbye and leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    No. Instead ask "Why am I being detained?" You've now put him on the dime; if the answer is that you are not being detained, say goodbye and leave.
    I don't ask .. I start walking away .. if he says "you can't go anywhere" then you know for sure.

    Last time I had a cop interaction, the cop did nothing and I walked away w/o further incident. Don't give him the option for a simple, quite, yes or no ... make him yell at you to stop you from moving. More witnesses.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    I live on Colorado's western slope, things are pretty conservative here. While I have never approached LEO on the subject, I have had a few conversations with the locals just in passing, encounters at the drink bar in a stop-n-rob etc. Most express the opinion that when they see someone OCing with a holster they don't really give it a second thought. The BGs will carry a gun just shoved in their waistband for quick ditching, it is the "scrote" looking guy with an open, untucked shirt that draws their attention. A couple have even said they wished more people would OC because in their opinion it stops the criminal element from doing anything while an OCer is around.

    On the front range (Denver-Boulder-Golden area) where the Kalifonia invaders tend to settle it sometimes gets dicey, but on the freedom side of the (continental) divide life is gooood!

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodypynes View Post
    after asking about 5 or 6 of them (I'm in a very small town), the reply is a unanimous 'yes' to OC.
    However, the last 2 I talked to about OC got very iffy about how to handle someone OC'ing and not willing to ID themselves (after they get a call).
    I was told by a Sgt. (who was filling in for the evening...he doesn't work in this town) that I COULD (but "might not") be charged under NCGS 14-223, if I refuse to ID myself "after they get a call and an officer asks me for my information".
    Well, not to be dissuaded ... I looked it up. It's a pretty easy Google search. It says if I "willfully AND unlawfully resist, delay, or obstruct (an officer's investigation)" then I am guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Well, I find that to be quite interesting b/c NC is not a Stop and ID state, therefore I shall not be committing any unlawful act (by not ID'ing) if I am not suspected of committing a crime.
    I will call our Chief next week (a very reasonable person, I might add) and ask "in what ways can I LAWFULLY resist, delay, or obstruct?". I can only think of a couple of ways: refusing a search of my person or property without a warrant (because that would definitely delay any investigation, 4th amendment anyone?), refusing to answer any questions I don't want to answer for any reason (because that would certainly delay any investigation, 5th amendment anyone?). There are probably other means by which I could lawfully resist, delay, or obstruct........I would just like to hear what he can come up with. If the answer is "you can NEVER lawfully do that", then I will inquire about the aforementioned amendments.
    I know this is a little off the topic of this thread, and I'm not trying to derail it. So, please accept my apologies. Does anyone else have any experience or info on NCGS 14-223?

    Stock up and stick together.

    § 14‑223. Resisting officers.
    If any person shall willfully and unlawfully resist, delay or obstruct a public officer in discharging or attempting to discharge a duty of his office, he shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1889, c. 51, s. 1; Rev., s. 3700; C.S., s. 4378; 1969, c. 1224, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 136; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)
    Just because the LEO "got a call" does not mean that he "has a duty" to do anything about it. Also, you will note that you have to "willfully and UNLAWFULLY" stop the LEO from doing "his duty". You have the RIGHT to remain silent, so how would that be "unlawful"?

    Basically, this is bogus...might not stop the ride, but the DA would never let this go anywhere, and likely, neither would the LEO's superior.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Used to work at a stop-n-rob (stealing that term, f350) as a cashier, years ago. The store's location was at a fairly convenient intersection in town, and we had frequent LEO's stop in to shoot the breeze with me, as I worked the graveyard shift alone. Their presence was of course very welcomed and as most of them were firearm enthusiasts and former military, we got along great! I asked several of them how they felt about OC, to which the unanimous reply was that it tied up officers who could be stopping actual crimes, as they were required to respond to the calls. They did say they supported exercising one's rights and fighting unjust laws, but that doing so at this level was a waste. They also responded by letting me know that if the OC'er was being uncooperative, that it was possible for them to find a law being broken, somehow. Most of them gave the obstruction or disorderly excuse. I lost a lot of respect for them that night as LEO's, unfortunately.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I follow the guidance from several non law enforcement friends...

    "how may i help you officer?" repeated as necessary! if the officer wants documentation during a traffic stop, e.g., DL, it is presented promptly, followed by 'how may i help you officer?'

    and that guidance has worked to date...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-26-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpSec View Post
    Used to work at a stop-n-rob (stealing that term, f350) as a cashier, years ago. The store's location was at a fairly convenient intersection in town, and we had frequent LEO's stop in to shoot the breeze with me, as I worked the graveyard shift alone. Their presence was of course very welcomed and as most of them were firearm enthusiasts and former military, we got along great! I asked several of them how they felt about OC, to which the unanimous reply was that it tied up officers who could be stopping actual crimes, as they were required to respond to the calls. They did say they supported exercising one's rights and fighting unjust laws, but that doing so at this level was a waste. They also responded by letting me know that if the OC'er was being uncooperative, that it was possible for them to find a law being broken, somehow. Most of them gave the obstruction or disorderly excuse. I lost a lot of respect for them that night as LEO's, unfortunately.

    Proof positive there are too many flipping laws on the books!

    Stop-N-Rob is far from being "my" term, I have seen & heard it being used for a couple decades.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-27-2013 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Be gentle with rule #19, please - fixed it.

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