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Thread: No CCL for fired cops?

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    No CCL for fired cops?

    An acquaintance of mine got discharged from a police department prior to the completion of his probationary period. Rather than resigning he got stubborn and insisted they fire him so he could collect unemployment (He wasn't fired for behavior. Just training issues).

    Yesterday my Lt. (who also knew him) told me he wouldn't be able to get a Wisconsin CCL because they're not issued to police officers who have been fired.



    I told him I believe he's thinking of dishonorably discharged military members, but he insist it includes cops.

    I'll admit I haven't perused through Act 35 or the CCL application in a long time but I don't recall ever seeing this.

    Any comments?

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    They guy was not a police officer .. he has to pass training for that. And it has nothing to do with his gun rights. And he was smart to make them fire him ... you quit & all your possible causes of action go right down the tubes usually.

    So unless he went all Stripes and started shooting his gun in the air for no reason, he's fine.

    Its not a dishonorable discharge ... he got fired from a job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    They guy was not a police officer .. he has to pass training for that. And it has nothing to do with his gun rights. And he was smart to make them fire him ... you quit & all your possible causes of action go right down the tubes usually.

    So unless he went all Stripes and started shooting his gun in the air for no reason, he's fine.

    Its not a dishonorable discharge ... he got fired from a job.
    I don't know where to start with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    They guy was not a police officer .. he has to pass training for that.
    WRONG! Officers sworn and working under probationary terms are STILL police officers. Most departments have a 1 year probationary term. Some have 1.5 years, some 2 years. But people working during that time are still sworn officers with full authority. He had already been certified (graduated from the academy).


    My OP was a question about the law,perhaps something I missed, not an invitation for you to rant like an ignoramus.

    Now I've been going over Act 35 and I still haven't found anything to support my Lt.'s claim. If you can find something to confirm/deny his claim, I'd appreciate it.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    ask him to show you the statute

    As with so many other things, it's easy to say "there's a law against that", or "the law says X", but I'm betting he can't come up with a bit of WI code to support his opinion.

    Here's the WI ccl statute
    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60

    Section 3 is titled "restrictions on issuing a license".
    I see nothing there referencing being fired, from any job.
    Basically, it says you can't be prohibited under federal law, can't be prohibited under WI law which copies federal law, can't be told by a judge not to possess a firearm, you have to be a WI resident, & you have to have proof of training.


    The Lt. may mean that he can't get a LEO cc card, which is true.
    175.49 discusses the requirements to get one of those, but it's a completely separate issue from the normal cc license citizens get.
    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/175/49
    See 175.49 (2)(b)(1) & (2) - the person under discussion fails both those tests.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-31-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    The Lt. may mean that he can't get a LEO cc card, which is true.
    Yeah, I know. I guess what I'm looking for is to prove myself wrong. I'm not about to get into an argument with my higher ups with out the entire facts. I've read nothing about it in the law. I'm asking for reassurance that I've missed nothing.

    It's weird how misinformation becomes "fact".

    And this is a case of reminding everyone not to count on cops to know everything about the law! I've been in the field for 31 years and know there is too much to "know everything", and refuse to pretend I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I don't know where to start with this.



    WRONG! Officers sworn and working under probationary terms are STILL police officers. Most departments have a 1 year probationary term. Some have 1.5 years, some 2 years. But people working during that time are still sworn officers with full authority. He had already been certified (graduated from the academy).


    My OP was a question about the law,perhaps something I missed, not an invitation for you to rant like an ignoramus.

    Now I've been going over Act 35 and I still haven't found anything to support my Lt.'s claim. If you can find something to confirm/deny his claim, I'd appreciate it.
    You are correct. Stuff varies state to state, but in every state I am aware of, officers on probation are still sworn commissioned officers. They HAVE to be, to be able to legally do the job. You can't exercise police powers (legally) if you are not commissioned. No different than you can't practice law without passing the bar (ok, there is an exception for rule 9 interns, but I digress)

    As for the OP's question, and recognizing that stuff varies state to state, I don't see how getting fired from a LEO position, especially considering it wasn't for an offense of "moral turpitude" or "dishonesty" would affect his RKBA in any way, shape or form. I can't imagine that he would have the same right to apply for a CCW and assuming it's a "shall issue" state, that he shall be issued one.

    There are several disqualifiers for CCW - conviction of a DV crime, having a DV protection order current and served against you, conviction of a felony, etc. that disqualify one for getting a CCW and/or carrying without one (where authorized - for example in my state you can carry openly w/o a permit and can carry concealed or openly at one's abode or fixed place of business without a permit) but being fired from a LEO job DISQUALIFYING YOUR RIGHT TO RKBA IN THAT STATE?

    I gotta call shenanigans on that one.

  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Thanks for being honest & willing to learn.
    Especially after so long in service.

    I'm asking for reassurance that I've missed nothing.
    Point of logic:
    Without knowing what you know, there's no way to know to point out something you've missed.
    I think the best I can do is point to the relevant bits of law.

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    Dishonorable Military discharge, by itself, is not a disqualifier for a Wisconsin CCL.
    ... The above statement of mine, is wrong.
    It is, because Dishonorable Military Discharge is a disqualifier from being able to possess a firearm under federal law. Look at posts further down.


    An honorable discharge, could be used to satisfy the training requirement, but there are many other ways to satisfy the training requirement... Hunter safety course, training from an instructor, a CCL from another state, etc.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 08-01-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron
    Dishonorable Military discharge, by itself, is not a disqualifier for a Wisconsin CCL.
    Yes, it is, because it makes someone federally inelegible to possess a firearm or ammunition.

    WI 175.60(3)(b) says that a WI ccl cannot be issued to someone who is federally prohibited.

    18USC922(d)(6) (page down) says that it is illegal for anyone to transfer/sell/give any firearm or ammunition to someone who has been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces.

    But unless the person under discussion was also dishonorably discharged, that doesn't apply here.
    I don't know how the Lt. would misapply that to someone being fired from a job.

    ETA:
    As a separate discussion, could someone who's dishonorably discharged, or someone who has a felony, or someone with a DV conviction or restraining order become a police officer? If so, would they be eligible for a LEO carry permit, even though they're not allowed to possess a firearm? (And why would they be allowed to possess one for work?)
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-01-2013 at 02:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Dishonorable Military discharge, by itself, is not a disqualifier for a Wisconsin CCL.

    An honorable discharge, could be used to satisfy the training requirement, but there are many other ways to satisfy the training requirement... Hunter safety course, training from an instructor, a CCL from another state, etc.
    Those that are dishonorably discharged are usually found guilty of a crime in a military court of law (Court Martial) which is considered a felony.

    From the BATFE site for form 4473:

    Question 11.b. - 11.l. Definition of Prohibited Person:
    Generally, 18
    U.S.C. § 922 prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in
    or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: has been convicted
    of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence; has been convicted of a felony,
    or any other crime, punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year
    (this does not include State misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of
    two years or less)
    ; is a fugitive from justice; is an unlawful user of, or
    addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any
    other controlled substance; has been adjudicated mentally defective or has
    been committed to a mental institution; has been discharged from the Armed
    Forces under dishonorable conditions
    ; has renounced his or her U.S.
    citizenship; is an alien illegally in the United States or an alien admitted to the
    United States under a nonimmigrant visa; or is subject to certain restraining
    orders. Furthermore, section 922 prohibits the shipment, transportation, or
    receipt in or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who is under
    indictment or information for a felony, or any other crime, punishable by
    imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.

    Link: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downl...f-f-4473-1.pdf

    Also from the FBI website...Link: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ni...rations-report

    Page 18 of the document shows the percentage of denials for firearm purchases:

    Criminal History for Felon (71%)
    Criminal History for Misdemeanor Crimes of Domestic Violence (12%)
    Criminal History for Other (Multiple DUIs, Non-NCIC Warrants, Flash Notices, etc.) (6%)
    Criminal History for Drug Abuse (4%)
    Domestic Violence Restraining Order (3 %)
    Fugitive from Justice (3 %)
    Illegal/Unlawful Aliens, Dishonorable Discharges, Denied Persons File, Mental Defectives (1%
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 08-01-2013 at 12:21 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I don't know where to start with this.



    WRONG! Officers sworn and working under probationary terms are STILL police officers. Most departments have a 1 year probationary term. Some have 1.5 years, some 2 years. But people working during that time are still sworn officers with full authority. He had already been certified (graduated from the academy).


    My OP was a question about the law,perhaps something I missed, not an invitation for you to rant like an ignoramus.

    Now I've been going over Act 35 and I still haven't found anything to support my Lt.'s claim. If you can find something to confirm/deny his claim, I'd appreciate it.
    Whatever ... tone down the steroids is my advice and stop listening to your cop "friends"

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Whatever ... tone down the steroids is my advice and stop listening to your cop "friends"
    I'm not the one who's posting incorrect information.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Point of logic:
    Without knowing what you know, there's no way to know to point out something you've missed.
    I think the best I can do is point to the relevant bits of law.
    Well, I can't find anything in the law that backs up my Lt's claim. If anyone finds it, please post it here. The next time he claims this I'd hate to tell him he's wrong and then have him whip out a statute book and show me where he's right. He's about 25 years my junior and he'd never let me forget about my ignorance on the subject!

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    Lemme make sure I understand the irony here. A police lieutenant spouts wrong law like numerous other cops--but, its the new guy who gets fired for training issues?

    Ohhhh, what exactly was the "training issue"? What is the final entry in his personnel file: "Probationer showed marked inability to make up law as he goes along"?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Lemme make sure I understand the irony here. A police lieutenant spouts wrong law like numerous other cops--but, its the new guy who gets fired for training issues?

    Ohhhh, what exactly was the "training issue"? What is the final entry in his personnel file: "Probationer showed marked inability to make up law as he goes along"?
    There are other possibilities, such as the OP misunderstood/misheard the Lt.

    Again, I am not refuting the claim, because I admittedly know nothing about CCL procedures in Wisconsin. But if I was a betting man I'd take the bet that getting fired from law enforcement would not result in sudden inability to be issued a CCL. And that claim has yet to be backed up by a cite

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    You can be fired for being late for work a lot or surfing porn on the internet among other things. Neither of which is a felony, so getting fired would not affect a CCW. Now, if you get fired for a felony or resign for one, like the police LT in Wi Rapids just did, then you're most likely screwed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yes, it is, because it makes someone federally inelegible to possess a firearm or ammunition.

    WI 175.60(3)(b) says that a WI ccl cannot be issued to someone who is federally prohibited.

    18USC922(d)(6) (page down) says that it is illegal for anyone to transfer/sell/give any firearm or ammunition to someone who has been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces.

    ...
    Thanks for the cite to 18USC922 (d)(6) it was helpful to my further education. The NICS background check actually looks at 18USC922(g)(6) to see if the subject "has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions". This is the prohibition to ship, transport, possess or receive any firearm or ammunition.

    What NICS background check inspects is spelled out in

    18USC922(t)(2) If receipt of a firearm would not violate subsection (g) or (n) or State law, the system shall—

    (A) assign a unique identification number to the transfer;

    (B) provide the licensee with the number; and

    (C) destroy all records of the system with respect to the call (other than the identifying number and the date the number was assigned) and all records of the system relating to the person or the transfer.
    This is 18USC922(g)

    18USC922(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

    (1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

    (2) who is a fugitive from justice;

    (3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

    (4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;

    (5) who, being an alien—
    _ (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

    _ (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));

    (6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

    (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;

    (8) who is subject to a court order that—
    _ (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;

    _ (B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and

    _ (C)
    __ (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or

    __ (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or

    (9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,

    to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
    Here is 18USC922 (n)

    18USC922(n) It shall be unlawful for any person who is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition or receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 08-01-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Yesterday my Lt. (who also knew him) told me he wouldn't be able to get a Wisconsin CCL because they're not issued to police officers who have been fired.



    I told him I believe he's thinking of dishonorably discharged military members, but he insist it includes cops.
    So long as you are a WI resident who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, you will be issued a WI CCL. The only way to loose your WI CCL is if you loose the legal ability to possess a firearm. It is as simple as this.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Dishonorable Military discharge, by itself, is not a disqualifier for a Wisconsin CCL.
    It actually is, because as it was mentioned and cited, this by itself makes you prohibited from possessing a firearm. The WI CCL application asks about discharge as does a 4473.

    Wisconsin Department of Justice
    APPLICATION FOR CONCEALED WEAPON LICENSE

    11. Have you ever been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Dishonorable Military discharge, by itself, is not a disqualifier for a Wisconsin CCL.
    It actually is, because a "YES" answer on your WI CCL application disqualifies you from being issued a WI CCL License. As it was mentioned and cited, this by itself makes you prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal Law.

    Wisconsin Department of Justice
    APPLICATION FOR CONCEALED WEAPON LICENSE

    11. Have you ever been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    An acquaintance of mine got discharged from a police department prior to the completion of his probationary period. Rather than resigning he got stubborn and insisted they fire him so he could collect unemployment (He wasn't fired for behavior. Just training issues).

    Yesterday my Lt. (who also knew him) told me he wouldn't be able to get a Wisconsin CCL because they're not issued to police officers who have been fired.



    I told him I believe he's thinking of dishonorably discharged military members, but he insist it includes cops.

    I'll admit I haven't perused through Act 35 or the CCL application in a long time but I don't recall ever seeing this.

    Any comments?
    As usual, most cops do not know gun laws.

    Wisconsin (for the most part) issues licenses to anyone who can legally own a gun (residency, 21+, training).

    Being fired from a police department doesn't make you a prohibited possessor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    It actually is, because as it was mentioned and cited, this by itself makes you prohibited from possessing a firearm. The WI CCL application asks about discharge as does a 4473.
    I corrected my post #8, 18 hours before you posted this.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 08-02-2013 at 10:30 PM.
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