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Thread: Lake of the Woods, Locust Grove

  1. #1
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Lake of the Woods, Locust Grove

    I will be attending an event in the Lake of the Woods. I was able to go to their web site and read their "Regulations" and found this:

    C. USE OF FIREARMS AND RELATED
    ITEMS
    1. Firearms are not permitted
    within LOW except as provided for
    by Federal and State law.
    2. No person other than a law
    enforcement officer in the
    performance of his duty shall
    discharge a firearm within LOW at
    any time.

    http://www.lowa.org/getmedia/30c90c8...lations_2.aspx

    I interpret this as long as I follow federal and state law I would be fine to OC or CC. Am I correct?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Their lawyers needed some additional billable hours, so came up with a long-way-around way of saying that unless you are committing a state or federal crime you are not committing a state or federal crime and there is no way we can regulate lawful behavior, but if we write something the low-information folks might be confused into thinking we are in fact regulating lawful behavior.

    So, to answer your question - Yes.

    Just remember that the part about only LEOs in the performance of their duties being allowed to discharge a firearm has exceptions

    Just for the sake of trivia - IIRC LOW cops are in fact Conservators of the Peace and thus qualify as law enforcement officers within the boundaries of the property. While they may in fact be rent-a-cops, they are fully fledged cops.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  3. #3
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Thanks Skidmark. Good to know about their "security" but I always do what I'm told I would suspect that the residents are empowered and I would get some negative responses. Maybe I should just CC... To clarify, if I was told to leave or secure my firearm only the property management would have authority to make this decision and not the residents? Or is it that the residents are "part owners" such that they also have the authority?
    Last edited by JohnM15A; 08-01-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    Thanks Skidmark. Good to know about their "security" but I always do what I'm told I would suspect that the residents are empowered and I would get some negative responses. Maybe I should just CC... To clarify, if I was told to leave or secure my firearm only the property management would have authority to make this decision and not the residents? Or is it that the residents are "part owners" such that they also have the authority?
    No! No! A thousand times - No! "Deciding" to CC because you want to avoid any possible conflict that comes from confusion and misreading of the rule plays right into their hands and gives them a win by default that they really are not entitled to.

    Not sure what you are getting at when saying both you and the residents "are empowered". Getting negative comments should not matter to you, unless the negative comments are sufficiently loud or provocative as to cause a breach of the peace - in which case you might want to ask the LOW cops to enforce the laws against committing breaches of the peace or assaults.

    If you believe that "the residents"would have the authority to make any decision about you being told to secure your handgun in your vehicle, then you believe in mob rule. The property management has already articulated their position regarding the lawful carry of firearms on LOW property, which you have already quoted. To restate - they say that unless you are breaking some state or federal law by the way you are carrying, or where you are carrying, then they have no problem with you carrying, and while they might get a bit testy about your having discharged your firearm, since you are not "a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duty", but as already mentioned there are several circumstances when you could discharge your firearm without running afoul of their regulation.

    The residents are not "part owners" and even if they were, a subset of "all the owners" can not lawfully up and create a regulation without following each and every step in the by-laws of the corporation that is LOW. And even if they did follow each and every step they could not create a regulation that applied only to you.

    I suggest that, for purposes of state preemption http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915 the LOW police department qualifies as "any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency" for the purposes of enforcing state law. Couple that with the published regulation that says LOW will follow state and federal law regarding the carry of firearms. I read the bottom line as saying as long as you remain a LAC you should (as opposed to saying you will) have no problems with LOW regarding OCing. I am purposely staying far, far away from the social aspects of your attending "a function" there. (Something about the relationship between valor and discretion. )

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    No! No! A thousand times - No! "Deciding" to CC because you want to avoid any possible conflict that comes from confusion and misreading of the rule plays right into their hands and gives them a win by default that they really are not entitled to.

    Not sure what you are getting at when saying both you and the residents "are empowered". Getting negative comments should not matter to you, unless the negative comments are sufficiently loud or provocative as to cause a breach of the peace - in which case you might want to ask the LOW cops to enforce the laws against committing breaches of the peace or assaults.

    If you believe that "the residents"would have the authority to make any decision about you being told to secure your handgun in your vehicle, then you believe in mob rule. The property management has already articulated their position regarding the lawful carry of firearms on LOW property, which you have already quoted. To restate - they say that unless you are breaking some state or federal law by the way you are carrying, or where you are carrying, then they have no problem with you carrying, and while they might get a bit testy about your having discharged your firearm, since you are not "a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duty", but as already mentioned there are several circumstances when you could discharge your firearm without running afoul of their regulation.

    The residents are not "part owners" and even if they were, a subset of "all the owners" can not lawfully up and create a regulation without following each and every step in the by-laws of the corporation that is LOW. And even if they did follow each and every step they could not create a regulation that applied only to you.

    I suggest that, for purposes of state preemption http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915 the LOW police department qualifies as "any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency" for the purposes of enforcing state law. Couple that with the published regulation that says LOW will follow state and federal law regarding the carry of firearms. I read the bottom line as saying as long as you remain a LAC you should (as opposed to saying you will) have no problems with LOW regarding OCing. I am purposely staying far, far away from the social aspects of your attending "a function" there. (Something about the relationship between valor and discretion. )

    stay safe.
    I guess one is not active on this board unless Skidmark gives you a tongue lashing every now and again... Yea, I know to CC is to cave. I would say that it is better to protect yourself CC then be denied to OC and then be unable to CC because of the scrutiny. I have read so many times where one is told to leave because they were OCing and when they returned without a sidearm were scrutinized to the nth degree. I don't OC just to make a point! I also and foremost carry to protect myself. If that means I feel I need to CC to accomplish that then that is what I do.

    When I mentioned "empowered" I was referring to the residents. On private property like a restaurant the management can tell you to leave but the patrons can not. In this situation the management can tell you to leave but can the residents? The residents have a much bigger interest than the patrons of a restaurant because they own property and pay dues...

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    I guess one is not active on this board unless Skidmark gives you a tongue lashing every now and again... Yea, I know to CC is to cave. I would say that it is better to protect yourself CC then be denied to OC and then be unable to CC because of the scrutiny. I have read so many times where one is told to leave because they were OCing and when they returned without a sidearm were scrutinized to the nth degree. I don't OC just to make a point! I also and foremost carry to protect myself. If that means I feel I need to CC to accomplish that then that is what I do.

    When I mentioned "empowered" I was referring to the residents. On private property like a restaurant the management can tell you to leave but the patrons can not. In this situation the management can tell you to leave but can the residents? The residents have a much bigger interest than the patrons of a restaurant because they own property and pay dues...
    Skid is just stating the obvious John.

    What he isn't saying is not so obvious but most of us know it. There isnothing that REQUIRES anyone to carry in a certain way or for that matter, carry at all.

    You certainly don't think I carry while I'm wallowing in the mud under a tractor or even when I've got both eyes glued in a camera, in a crowd, and can't pay attention to my gun.

    We all have our personal guidelines we follow and none of the more responsible members here which includes Skidmark...will hold it against you.

    Advocating CC only will get you on the Sh&^ list though.

    The James Bond crowd might get uppity but no one pays much attention to them.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I went back and forth with the board and the GM gave me their final position.. Looks like legal carry is allowed:
    - - - -
    Ed,

    Good morning and thanks for your question about gun rules at LOWA.

    In C1, our intent is to follow state and federal laws when it comes to possessing and carrying firearms.

    In C2, we talk about firearm discharge. This rule reflects that we have thousands of people living and playing in close proximity and that discharging weapons for target practice or hunting or other reasons could be upsetting or dangerous.

    That is the extent of our rules. Thanks again for letting us know about your concerns and questions.

    Regards,

    Phil Rodenberg, CMCAŽ
    General Manager
    Lake of the Woods Association
    102 Lakeview Parkway
    Locust Grove, Virginia 22508
    540-972-2214 (phone) 540-972-2243 (fax)
    www.LOWA.org
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I went back and forth with the board and the GM gave me their final position.. Looks like legal carry is allowed:
    - - - -
    Ed,

    Good morning and thanks for your question about gun rules at LOWA.

    In C1, our intent is to follow state and federal laws when it comes to possessing and carrying firearms.

    In C2, we talk about firearm discharge. This rule reflects that we have thousands of people living and playing in close proximity and that discharging weapons for target practice or hunting or other reasons could be upsetting or dangerous.

    That is the extent of our rules. Thanks again for letting us know about your concerns and questions.

    Regards,

    Phil Rodenberg, CMCAŽ
    General Manager
    Lake of the Woods Association
    102 Lakeview Parkway
    Locust Grove, Virginia 22508
    540-972-2214 (phone) 540-972-2243 (fax)
    www.LOWA.org
    Phil Rodenberg! Former City Manager of Fredericksburg... had to resign after being caught having an affair with a subordinate... I had no idea he was out at LOW.

    TFred

  9. #9
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Well, it IS private property so I would ASSUME they could ask you to leave for any reason, although an arrest for being armed could get ... interesting. And profitable.

    I would also ASSUME that they would have some issues trying to BAN firearms in homes. As previously said, it is some creative gymnastic wordplay meant to confuse the uninformed. Perhaps even that could result in a civil action since they, through their CoP force, are acting as a local government.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    ....

    When I mentioned "empowered" I was referring to the residents. On private property like a restaurant the management can tell you to leave but the patrons can not. In this situation the management can tell you to leave but can the residents? The residents have a much bigger interest than the patrons of a restaurant because they own property and pay dues...
    The individual residents only/merely/just live there. As individual residents they have no authority to say nthing to anyone about lawful conduct, no matter how howwibly wong their feewings were hurted. They may have organized themselves into some sort of HOA-ish thing to establish rules for residents and guests, but the individual residents still do not have the authority to enforce any HOA-ish rule(s). The HOA-ish organization may hire folks (LOW cops) to do that for them, or a resident can bring a matter to the attention of the HOS-ish for a decision about what to do.

    As for the first part of John's comments - This is, so to speak, a board dedicated to the support of driving Chevrolet vehicles. We may recognize that other brands exist, but we try to avoid supporting the driving of those other brands. We even recognize that some members of your familyt, or some folks they know, may prefer to drive some other brand, and that our members may thus on occassion find themselves "forced" into riding in some other brand. But we need to remember that when all coices are available we are supposed to pick Chevrolet over any other brand.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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