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This ruling in AZ? In AZ? yea, cops can take your guns anytime they want

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
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Whatcom County
I completely respect your opinion. I just disagree with it. I had ample experience dealing with the cops in college because I played in a loud band (UCSB and we played a lot of parties in Isla Vista) and naturally the cops had to come in response to complaints and shut us down sometimes.

We developed a very good working relationship with the IV foot patrol. We were kind and respectful and we got that in return. I don't believe that police are to be avoided or feared. That's my opinion.

I realize many people here think differently vis a vis the police. That's no skin off my back. I ENCOURAGE people to know where they stand iow ask questions like "am I free to go". I have no problem with people when they ask me that. If it's a terry or traffic stop, I tell them they are not free to go and that I will let them know when they are.

Nobody should ever feel hesitant to ask a cop "am I free to leave"?

fwiw, I've also been arrested (unpaid traffic ticket) and proned out at gunpoint (terry stop for armed robbery. I wasn't the guy but I matched the description).

Cops were totally cool to me in both incidents, professional, fair and respectful. As they should be.


Any cop who gets offended because somebody asks "am I free to leave" needs to consider another career choice

cheers

LOL......oh god good thing I stopped drinking coffee you really do make me laugh.

Arrested for an unpaid traffic ticket and held at gun point for a crime you didn't commit......but hey they were cool to me.....hahahahaha

Welcome to police state USA and those who are cool with it.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I agree with the "don't talk to them" thing. Thanks to the courts its our only option. Please don't think it rude when georg jetson asks "Am I free to go?". It's not because I'm rude... it's just that... I can't trust you. Thank the courts.

Yep cops take it as a personal insult when we say we can't trust them. They take it personal and want to defend how "trustworthy" they are, yet when the courts have ruled they can lie in the course of an investigation that leaves us no choice to assume they are lying when they talk to us, the best thing to do is not talk to them.
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I'd bet that this gets overturned by the SC. This was a consensual encounter until the police went to seize the gun, then it became clearly non-consensual, and required, at a minimum, RAS--which the officers did not have.

Lessons: Even in a consensual encounter, don't let yourself get into a contentious situation with the police. Walk away. If they ask any question related to your behavior, it is an investigative stop, and you are the target. Drop into am-I-free-to-go mode. Make the officers clearly establish that the encounter is a Terry stop. Never let an officer use a consensual encounter to develop RAS or PC.

Oh, and this guy needs to be jailed for felony stupidity!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
I'd bet that this gets overturned by the SC. This was a consensual encounter until the police went to seize the gun, then it became clearly non-consensual, and required, at a minimum, RAS--which the officers did not have.

Lessons: Even in a consensual encounter, don't let yourself get into a contentious situation with the police. Walk away. If they ask any question related to your behavior, it is an investigative stop, and you are the target. Drop into am-I-free-to-go mode. Make the officers clearly establish that the encounter is a Terry stop. Never let an officer use a consensual encounter to develop RAS or PC.

Oh, and this guy needs to be jailed for felony stupidity!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

That is the biggest problem and probably one of the most used tools for unconstitutional behavior by our employees. They know that it takes years for these things to be overturned and even if they are it may take months for a judge to rule against them and that there is rarely any punitive sanctions against their actions. The cops know it and the public knows it so most the public not wanting the hassle simply comply.

Trust me police don't just always let you go when they don't have PC or RAS, many hate having you challenge their authority in that manner and will let you know it.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Lessons: Even in a consensual encounter, don't let yourself get into a contentious situation with the police. Walk away. If they ask any question related to your behavior, it is an investigative stop, and you are the target. Drop into am-I-free-to-go mode. Make the officers clearly establish that the encounter is a Terry stop. Never let an officer use a consensual encounter to develop RAS or PC.

Oh, and this guy needs to be jailed for felony stupidity!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Minor point, but important for new readers.

It can't be a consensual encounter and a stop at the same time. Stop is an abbreviation for Terry Stop/detention/detainment.

If it is a consensual encounter during which the cop is asking questions about the citizen himself, one would distinguish it by calling it an investigative contact or investigative encounter.
 

SFCRetired

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Oct 29, 2008
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Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Unless and until the police are under the same mandate to be truthful to me that I am to be truthful to them, I have nothing to say to them other than, perhaps, "Good day" or similar greeting.

Granted that there are many good officers out there who respect our rights and try to do their job honestly and fairly. There are also officers who should have either failed the psychological or drug screening and who should not be entrusted with so much as a water pistol. I do respect the former and regret that I have to resort to the "no speech" policy with them. The latter I have nothing but contempt for and hope my encounters with them remain very limited.
 

PALO

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Kent
Minor point, but important for new readers.

It can't be a consensual encounter and a stop at the same time. Stop is an abbreviation for Terry Stop/detention/detainment.

If it is a consensual encounter during which the cop is asking questions about the citizen himself, one would distinguish it by calling it an investigative contact or investigative encounter.

Probably the best case I ever investigated involved voluntary (non custodial) interrogation. In that case, I had suspicions (that did not rise ot the level of RAS let alone PC) that a person might be the culprit in a series of 3 arsons.

I asked him if he would come to the town hall (less intimidating environment than the PD) and answer some questions. He agreed. By telling him he was not under arrest, taking seperate cars to the interview, my providin him food and drink, that he was sitting by the open door, I was able to conduct a NONcustodial interrogation. Many Open Carry forum people would not agree to such an interrogation, but this guy did. To make a long story short, I eventually got a confession, and a good one since he admitted to the accelerants used, and a lot of other info that only the culprit would know.

And yea, the interrogation held up in court as not requiring miranda since I was consistent with the case law in establishing a NONcustodial interrogation.

I respect those who choose not to talk to police. Like I said, my experience with cops was mostly through playing in a band and they would come and shut us down, and also working on the program board at UCSB where we hired cops for security.

Imo, by establishing a friendly working relationship withe local police (county sheriff and camnpus PD), I probably got more leniency in regards to their letting us play a couple more songs before shutting down, etc.

On one occasion one of the cops actually sat in and guitar with us for a song. I think by not viewing cops as the enemy and treating them with respect and civility (but not subservient or bowing and scraping) one is more likely, ceteris paribus, to have positive encounters with them.

YMMV

I fully respect the choice of those to not talk to police, but fwiw, the VAST majority of the time I am talking to people, it is not pursuant to trying to make a criminal case against them, it's community oriented stuff like crime prevention, etc. I strongly suggest for those that are concerned about their local PD's practices (and who wouldn't be), to attend community meetings (if cops attend them in your area. They do in mine) and make your concerns heard, whether it's speeding in your neighborhood, or whatever. I also suggest people get a copy of their local PD's policies and procedures manual. P&P vary substantially agency to agency and if you are filming cops (which you should be), you will know more completely what is and isn't misconduct.
 
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WalkingWolf

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A perfect example of why not to talk to police. Here he admits he invited a person to a interview with every intent to make an arrest, but went through extra measures to get a confession without a Miranda warning. And to make matters worse he admits that he entices or has enticed by being nice to get officers to commit misconduct by bending rules. Just amazing!
 

sudden valley gunner

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A perfect example of why not to talk to police. Here he admits he invited a person to a interview with every intent to make an arrest, but went through extra measures to get a confession without a Miranda warning. And to make matters worse he admits that he entices or has enticed by being nice to get officers to commit misconduct by bending rules. Just amazing!

+1
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Although it is a good example of 'why you shouldn't talk to the police', it's also an example of good police work. If the police were required to honestly tell every suspected criminal "Hey, I think you committed a crime and I'd like to interrogate you about it, would you agree to talk to me?" then any crook not already high on bath salts and cilantro is going to say "Naah man, I'm good."

PALO didn't violate the person's rights and he made sure to stay within the established boundaries. The fact that he fooled a suspect into confessing is a point against the criminal, not PALO.

WalkingWolf, I have to disagree with you about "Here he admits he invited a person to a interview with every intent to make an arrest."
PALO said his suspicions did Not rise to probable cause nor even to a reasonable suspicion. He had a hunch, he played it and he caught an arsonist. All we have is his statement that he intended to conduct an interview/interrogation and that he made it clear that the suspect did not have to agree to it and was free to leave at any time during the interview. That said suspect did not take advantage of these offerings was his fault, not PALO's.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Although it is a good example of 'why you shouldn't talk to the police', it's also an example of good police work. If the police were required to honestly tell every suspected criminal "Hey, I think you committed a crime and I'd like to interrogate you about it, would you agree to talk to me?" then any crook not already high on bath salts and cilantro is going to say "Naah man, I'm good."

PALO didn't violate the person's rights and he made sure to stay within the established boundaries. The fact that he fooled a suspect into confessing is a point against the criminal, not PALO.

The problem here is he is trying to feed the folks here a line of carp. Trying to convince how nice he is, and how wonderful he is, while he is trying to put you in jail. It may be good police work, I have done it, but I do not blow smoke up people's back side either. Which indicates a lack of honesty.

That is doubled by the fact that he admits to hiring off duty cops to get special privileges which is bad. A person that breaks the rules as a citizen probably breaks the rules as a LEO. From his postings I wouldn't trust him. YMMV
 

MAC702

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Nevada
...Imo, by establishing a friendly working relationship withe local police (county sheriff and camnpus PD), I probably got more leniency in regards to their letting us play a couple more songs before shutting down, etc.

On one occasion one of the cops actually sat in and guitar with us for a song....

Here's what I got out of your post:

If you are calling to complain because the band next door is playing too loud for noise ordinances, you'd better hope some guy in the band isn't friendly with the cops.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Here's what I got out of your post:

If you are calling to complain because the band next door is playing too loud for noise ordinances, you'd better hope some guy in the band isn't friends with the cops.

And here I thought I was the only one to catch onto that... LOL

We call that corruption, maybe not epic corruption but corruption none the less.

BTW PALO, the not talking cops advice works both ways. Cops should be careful talking to the public, especially on a social site.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Here's what I got out of your post:

If you are calling to complain because the band next door is playing too loud for noise ordinances, you'd better hope some guy in the band isn't friendly with the cops.

And here I thought I was the only one to catch onto that... LOL

We call that corruption, maybe not epic corruption but corruption none the less.

BTW PALO, the not talking cops advice works both ways. Cops should be careful talking to the public, especially on a social site.

Many of us caught it. The problem is he won't answer or purposefully evades the pointed parts of an argument. I think he is a nice guy who truly believes he's for liberty but hasn't opened his mind up wide enough to accept anything that is outside his preconceived notions of what is acceptable. By his own postings he's pretty much admitted he feels police are something special and thinks the general population does too, so any of us who would question that are just........fill in the blanks.
 

Citizen

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Many of us caught it. The problem is he won't answer or purposefully evades the pointed parts of an argument. I think he is a nice guy who truly believes he's for liberty but hasn't opened his mind up wide enough to accept anything that is outside his preconceived notions of what is acceptable. By his own postings he's pretty much admitted he feels police are something special and thinks the general population does too, so any of us who would question that are just........fill in the blanks.

Oh, drat. In that case I won't criticize him for calling an investigative consensual encounter a social contact. Even though trying to color an investigative encounter as a nice social activity on par with discussing the weather, in order to better hide the fact that many people feel compelled to talk to police, I won't address the risibility of such spin.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Oh, drat. In that case I won't criticize him for calling an investigative consensual encounter a social contact. Even though trying to color an investigative encounter as a nice social activity on par with discussing the weather, in order to better hide the fact that many people feel compelled to talk to police, I won't address the risibility of such spin.

Oh by all means address it some people need to have the blinders ripped off, even when they don't realize they are wearing them. ;)
 

KYGlockster

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Dec 9, 2010
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Ashland, KY
Before I began dealing with criminals every day of my life I would have agreed with everyone here that PALO was wrong in what he did, but here are some points to consider:

This encounter was COMPLETELY consensual. The individual he questioned was under NO obligation to go to the diner and speak with him. The individual could have simply said "No," or he simply could have left if he had became uncomfortable with the direction the encounter was heading. The part I must STRESS is that the individual was NOT involved in a CUSTODIAL interrogation, nor was he even under arrest. Being as this was a consensual encounter and the man volunteered all of the information to PALO, Miranda does NOT apply.

He did NOT deprive this man of his rights.

Another aspect that must be looked at is this man was an ARSONIST. Yes, we ALL are entitled to equal protection under the law, but in this case it was the man's own confessions in a consensual encounter that led to his arrest. Arson is a serious offense, and PALO took a hunch and worked with it the best way he could. If we didn't follow through with the occasional "hunch" that we sometimes get then we wouldn't solve the amount of crime that we do, and as it is now a large percentage of crime goes unsolved. We MUST do so in a way that is legal and that does NOT violate another's rights, and this is exactly what PALO did with this gentleman. He used techniques that were legal and constitutional and that led to the arrest of a violent criminal.

I can assure you all if you dealt with these kinds of people every day you would come to realize it is much harder than one would believe. Most of these individuals prone to violence show NO remorse for the crimes they have committed, and could care less about ANOTHER's rights. They care about themselves and nothing more. If it takes a consensual encounter to get a violent individual off of the streets then go for it.

Let's not forget, had this individual not CONFESSED during this CONSENSUAL encounter, or had he NOT been who PALO believed him to be, the only outcome would have been him conversing with PALO for a while and a free meal. It was his voluntary confession of a violent act that led to his arrest -- nothing more, nothing less.
 
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