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This ruling in AZ? In AZ? yea, cops can take your guns anytime they want

sudden valley gunner

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Before I began dealing with criminals every day of my life I would have agreed with everyone here that PALO was wrong in what he did, but here are some points to consider:

This encounter was COMPLETELY consensual. The individual he questioned was under NO obligation to go to the diner and speak with him. The individual could have simply said "No," or he simply could have left if he had became uncomfortable with the direction the encounter was heading. The part I must STRESS is that the individual was NOT involved in a CUSTODIAL interrogation, nor was he even under arrest. Being as this was a consensual encounter and the man volunteered all of the information to PALO, Miranda does NOT apply.

He did NOT deprive this man of his rights.

Another aspect that must be looked at is this man was an ARSONIST. Yes, we ALL are entitled to equal protection under the law, but in this case it was the man's own confessions in a consensual encounter that led to his arrest. Arson is a serious offense, and PALO took a hunch and worked with it the best way he could. If we didn't work on our "gut feelings" every now and then we would rarely solve crimes. We MUST do so in a way that is legal and that does NOT violate another's rights, and this is exactly what PALO did with this gentleman. He used techniques that were legal and constitutional and that led to the arrest of a violent criminal.

I can assure you all if you dealt with these kinds of people every day you would come to realize it is much harder than one would believe. Most of these individuals prone to violence show NO remorse for the crimes they have committed, and could care less about ANOTHER's rights. They care about themselves and nothing more. If it takes a consensual encounter to get a violent individual off of the streets then go for it.

Let's not forget, had this individual not CONFESSED during this CONSENSUAL encounter, or had he NOT been who PALO believed him to be, the only outcome would have been him conversing with PALO for a while and a free meal. It was his voluntary confession of a violent act that led to his arrest -- nothing more, nothing less.

I have little problem with you or PALO using instinct or gut feelings to investigate as long as you absolutely respect the restrictions put upon you and the individual rights, such as the common law right not to detain or seize anybody just to investigate.

What WW appropriately pointed out his how he worded an felt about it, it shows a different attitude towards his actions than what his attitude should have been, it shows a mindset that might need to be readjusted to more in line with our fundamental rights as individuals not the "legal" rationalization and authority granted by politically connected lawyers, (many who were police officers, prosecutors first).
 

KYGlockster

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I have little problem with you or PALO using instinct or gut feelings to investigate as long as you absolutely respect the restrictions put upon you and the individual rights, such as the common law right not to detain or seize anybody just to investigate.

What WW appropriately pointed out his how he worded an felt about it, it shows a different attitude towards his actions than what his attitude should have been, it shows a mindset that might need to be readjusted to more in line with our fundamental rights as individuals not the "legal" rationalization and authority granted by politically connected lawyers, (many who were police officers, prosecutors first).

I agree 100%. I wasn't looking at it from that direction.
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
I disagree with the don't talk to them thing, but granted in my state, they CANNOT take your gun if you are lawfully carrying it "just because". I deal with people CCWing all the time, and the only time I take their gun is when I am arresting them, or some other extenuating circ's.

Why talk at all? You are a free man (otherwise they would arrest you) ... is talking to them going to make one free-er? No.

I'm offended when a policeman comes up and talks to me .. I don't know him. It's very rude.
 

OC for ME

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If you have a hunch, as a cop, regarding a citizen and that citizen being engaged in criminal activity then investigate and gather hard evidence of illegality. I will not support the arsonist, he apparently had the opportunity to end the "discussion." The end does not justify the means. The fact that a cop would resort to that tactic vs. gaining hard evidence is troubling.
 

PALO

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LOL......oh god good thing I stopped drinking coffee you really do make me laugh.

Arrested for an unpaid traffic ticket and held at gun point for a crime you didn't commit......but hey they were cool to me.....hahahahaha

Welcome to police state USA and those who are cool with it.

Spare me the rubbish. THe cops were completely justified in taking me down at gunpoint, because they had RAS that I had just committed an armed robbery. And with a little investigation and some explaining on my part, it was clear I was not the perp.

It does not matter, from a constitutional law or a common sense perspective whether I was actually guilty. What matters is the facts and circumstances known to the officer at the time of the stop. Just as an unjustified stop (without RAS or PC) is not retroactively justified if the cops find a bunch of stolen property etc. on my person , similarly if the cops find out the suspect is entirely innocent, that doesn't negate the validity of the stop.

RAS is the standard and if cops are doing their job properly, PLENTY of innocents will be stopped.

That aint a police state. That's the recognition that cops are dutybound to investigate suspicious behavior at the RAS threshold. In many of those encounters, it will turn out to be innocent behavior once investigated. Great

In other circ's it very well may be criminal behavior but the cops won't be able to develop PC at the time of the terry and will release the person. Doens't mean criminal activity wasn't afoot. Just means they weren't able to develop PC. Heck, in many cases I have developed PC long after a terry (or series of terrys) but the intel gathered during the terrys was what started the investigation, that led to the ultimate arrest.

Regardless, all your wankin' aside, the cops were entirely professional and cool. They did their job exactly how they were supposed to , not in a police state, but in a society ruled by rule of law.

And if you have RAS that a person has just committed an armed robbery, you conduct a felony stop at gunpoint. That's basic officer safety and entirely constitutional. They did so. Professionally

I realize that any post you make is just an excuse to whine about the police even when, as in these cases, they did exactly what law, policy, and common sense dictates they should do.

In the case of the traffic ticket, I got arrested but they let me pay bail without getting booked, which was nice. So, it doesn't appear in any database as an 'arrest' in terms of custodial arrest, because I was never booked.
 

wrightme

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Spare me the rubbish. THe cops were completely justified in taking me down at gunpoint, because they had RAS that I had just committed an armed robbery. And with a little investigation and some explaining on my part, it was clear I was not the perp.

It does not matter, from a constitutional law or a common sense perspective whether I was actually guilty. What matters is the facts and circumstances known to the officer at the time of the stop. Just as an unjustified stop (without RAS or PC) is not retroactively justified if the cops find a bunch of stolen property etc. on my person , similarly if the cops find out the suspect is entirely innocent, that doesn't negate the validity of the stop.

RAS is the standard and if cops are doing their job properly, PLENTY of innocents will be stopped.

That aint a police state. That's the recognition that cops are dutybound to investigate suspicious behavior at the RAS threshold. In many of those encounters, it will turn out to be innocent behavior once investigated. Great

In other circ's it very well may be criminal behavior but the cops won't be able to develop PC at the time of the terry and will release the person. Doens't mean criminal activity wasn't afoot. Just means they weren't able to develop PC. Heck, in many cases I have developed PC long after a terry (or series of terrys) but the intel gathered during the terrys was what started the investigation, that led to the ultimate arrest.

Regardless, all your wankin' aside, the cops were entirely professional and cool. They did their job exactly how they were supposed to , not in a police state, but in a society ruled by rule of law.

And if you have RAS that a person has just committed an armed robbery, you conduct a felony stop at gunpoint. That's basic officer safety and entirely constitutional. They did so. Professionally

I realize that any post you make is just an excuse to whine about the police even when, as in these cases, they did exactly what law, policy, and common sense dictates they should do.

In the case of the traffic ticket, I got arrested but they let me pay bail without getting booked, which was nice. So, it doesn't appear in any database as an 'arrest' in terms of custodial arrest, because I was never booked.

NO. Most emphatically, NO.

If cops do their jobs right, few innocents would be stopped. If it is RAS, it would not be 'Plenty of innocents stopped.'



I use the term 'stopped' to indicate an investigatory contact, NOT a consensual encounter. If so many innocents must be stopped before finding someone worth 'stopping,' the cops are failing.
 
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WalkingWolf

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SVG if you follow his posts you will see that he sees the gun as sign of authority, not a tool for self defense. He has been drinking the Kool Aid.
 

PALO

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Before I began dealing with criminals every day of my life I would have agreed with everyone here that PALO was wrong in what he did, but here are some points to consider:

This encounter was COMPLETELY consensual. The individual he questioned was under NO obligation to go to the diner and speak with him. The individual could have simply said "No," or he simply could have left if he had became uncomfortable with the direction the encounter was heading. The part I must STRESS is that the individual was NOT involved in a CUSTODIAL interrogation, nor was he even under arrest. Being as this was a consensual encounter and the man volunteered all of the information to PALO, Miranda does NOT apply.

He did NOT deprive this man of his rights.

Another aspect that must be looked at is this man was an ARSONIST. Yes, we ALL are entitled to equal protection under the law, but in this case it was the man's own confessions in a consensual encounter that led to his arrest. Arson is a serious offense, and PALO took a hunch and worked with it the best way he could. If we didn't follow through with the occasional "hunch" that we sometimes get then we wouldn't solve the amount of crime that we do, and as it is now a large percentage of crime goes unsolved. We MUST do so in a way that is legal and that does NOT violate another's rights, and this is exactly what PALO did with this gentleman. He used techniques that were legal and constitutional and that led to the arrest of a violent criminal.

I can assure you all if you dealt with these kinds of people every day you would come to realize it is much harder than one would believe. Most of these individuals prone to violence show NO remorse for the crimes they have committed, and could care less about ANOTHER's rights. They care about themselves and nothing more. If it takes a consensual encounter to get a violent individual off of the streets then go for it.

Let's not forget, had this individual not CONFESSED during this CONSENSUAL encounter, or had he NOT been who PALO believed him to be, the only outcome would have been him conversing with PALO for a while and a free meal. It was his voluntary confession of a violent act that led to his arrest -- nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you. I acted consistently with case law and completely respected all the constitutional protection this man was afforded. All I had to suspect him was that he called in one of the arsons and in all three arsons they occurred on weekends when his wife was out of town. That is certainly not RAS, but just like the initial behavior that led to the french connection bust, it's the kind of behavior that made me go, hmm..

I did some research on the guy, where he went to school etc to see what made him tick (see: catholic guilt). I was later able to use that stuff during the interrogation to eventually get him to break down and confess. I never placed hands on him, made threats, or anything like that. Both the defense attorney and the prosecutor, once the case was adjudicated (after his motions to suppress etc. were denied, he pled guilty) gave me props for a great investigation, and using good investigative tactics to solve a possibly unsolvable crime (forensics-wise).

He freely and voluntarily drove the town hall to be interrogated and I made it crystal clear he was free to leave at any time, placed him by the open door and me on the other side of the table, etc. I never raised my voice, displayed a weapon (I was plainclothes) etc. iow doing all the things to make sure no constructive arrest happened that would require miranda.

Fwiw, I went to grad school for counseling psychology and some of the stuff I learned there, as well as from reading transcripts of the bundy interviews etc. helped in getting into his head. If you know what makes a guy tick, his motivation, etc. it helps a lot. I have taken Reid and Advanced Reid interrogation schools but those are just a starting point. In an interrogation like this, it comes down to establishing rapport and creating psychological pressure in his own mind to confess. He DID feel guilty, as non-sociopaths will feel, and that is one reason why people confess. When you are racked with guilt and uncertainty, the internal pressure to let it go and confess is huge. That's an advantage for the interrogator.

If he hadn't confessed, the case almost certainly would have gone unsolved and.or he would have kept committing arsons until he screwed up enough to get caught.

In my former state (HI) the case law was a "focus" standard for miranda requirements, so I would haev had to mirandize. Heck, in HI if I am interrogating OVER THE PHONE to somebody who is nowhere near me, not in custody and I don't even know where he is, we had to mirandize, because HI chose to require miranda whenever a person was merely the focus of an investigation. However, WA state sticks pretty clearly to the standards established in Miranda v Arizona where miranda warnings are only required when both custody (and for the purpose of miranda, custody can be triggered with far less than even handcuffing. It doesn't take much to trigger a miranda requirement/ and interrogation are present.

I also made 100% sure it wasn't a false confession by entering the interrogation blind as to fire ignition points, etc. Since I didn't know those case facts, there was no way I could , even unintentionally plant ideas in his head. And by his revealing the ignitionpoints , accelerants used, etc. -facts that were NOT known to me but would be known by the perp (and the arson investigator) there was no chance an innocent man was falsely confessing.

There were some very bizarre (but not really for arsons) sexual motivations apparent in his MO and knowing those, it helped with figuring out what made him tick and what made him commit the arsons.

This case was a good example of how being armed with information (all the WA case law on miranda, for instance) is a huge advantage for an LEO. It's why I pore over the LED's and Scotusblog and case law, so that I can be assured I'm on firm footing constitutionally while using the tools available to me.

There are a lot of examples where people who are guilty as #$(#($ get interrogated by the police and not only do they not confess but they are smart enough to take suspicion OFF them. Ridgway, the serial killer, for example submitted to questioning back when he was a person of interest, as have many other serial killers and talking ot the police actually BENEFITED them because it turned the police OFF of suspecting them. Ridgway wwas eventually caught years later through DNA, fwiw.

I guess I have the nuns at his catholic school to thank as well, because I was able to use his deepseated religious convictions and guilt over his crimes to get an in, into his psyche and get the confession. He was an otherwise good person, and thus felt a lot of guilt, so I was able to use that. If he had been a sociopath or just a total scumbag who felt no remorse, the interrogation style I used would not have worked. I got a fair amount of info from his wife and some acquaintances of his before the interrogation as to his motivations, beliefs, etc. and there you go.

I;m damn proud of that case, and for those who are wankin' about it, I don't get it. Completely following the constitution and respecting his rights was paramount in my investigation, which is why even in very liberal WA all the evidence stuck and none of the suppression motions were upheld
 

WalkingWolf

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It is also legal for a snake to slither in the grass. Deceptive practices is deceptive practices, and IMHO makes a person of less than trustworthy morality. I certainly would not want my granddaughter to date a snake.

Every interview I did was by the books, if I considered the person a suspect they were informed of their rights. I don't have a very high opinion of tricksters no matter which side of the badge they are on.
 

PALO

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Why talk at all? You are a free man (otherwise they would arrest you) ... is talking to them going to make one free-er? No.

I'm offended when a policeman comes up and talks to me .. I don't know him. It's very rude.

In a substantial # of terry stops, as well as arrests, and other encounters, the person the police are talking to can explain X and thus establish that no criminal activity is afoot and.or point the cops in the right direction. He can also offer alibi and /or self defense claims. i had a case once where I arrested a lawyer for brandishing (plenty of PC) . When I gave him the opportunity to provide a statement, he provided an excellent case for self defense which is why I released him w/o booking and why the prosecutor declined to file charges. Because of what HE said. It is often beneficial to talk to the cops when suspicion comes down on you, or even after arrest. It depends on the facts and circ's

People get the false impression that talking hurts your cause because they only see the cases BROUGHT to court, where that is often the case. Theydon't see the 'cases' where talking helped the individual, because those don't get FiLED ON in the first place usually, let alone go to court, like the example above.

For people involved in a self defense shooting, a (brief) statement given at the scene is infinitely more credible than one given AFTER consulting with an attorney. I recommedn giving a BRIEF (not detailed statement) at the scene and then making it clear you will give a complete stastement and submit to questioning after you get your attorney present. Granted, my state offers substantial protection to self defense

In the zimmerman case, he did so, and in large part because what he said matched the fact pattern he wasn't charged, but unfortunately political pressure came down and THEN thye charged him ,which was a tragedy.

When I was stopped at gunpoint for RAS of armed robbery, I was entirely innocent and I damn well spoke to the cops, since i was able to explain where I had come from etc. and it wasn't the crime scene. I even had a receipt from taco bell right about hte time the offense occurred, and it became clear I wasn't the bad guy.

If you are guilty, there are very good reasons not to talk to the police , ALTHOUGH there are many cases where smart guilty people do and are actually able to convince the police they are innocent. But in general, not a good idea. If you are innocent, ... then it depends, frankly on the type of case, if you have an alibi etc.
 

PALO

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It is also legal for a snake to slither in the grass. Deceptive practices is deceptive practices, and IMHO makes a person of less than trustworthy morality. I certainly would not want my granddaughter to date a snake.

Every interview I did was by the books, if I considered the person a suspect they were informed of their rights. I don't have a very high opinion of tricksters no matter which side of the badge they are on.

That;'s groovy, but I follow the law. And the law (in my state and under the federal guidelines) establishes when Miranda is required. If it is not required, I usually don't offer miranda warnings. SOMEtimes I will, for tactical reasons, of course.

The point is that in the arson case I actually didn't use tactical deception. That's a tool in interrogations, but in THIS interrogation I did not use it at all. My interrogation strategy (which I had mapped out beforehand) was to be entirely truthful, establish rapport, use catholic guilt, case facts, and also some of the sexual motivations suggeted by his MO.

I had a case where it took me 4 seperate interrogations before I got a confession. The first encounter I mirandized even thoug it was noncustodial and I didn't have to "for effect". It gave me the advantage of (per case law) not having to mirandize on the next interrogation a day later since he had already been informed of his rights in this case and per WA case law that admonishment held for several days, let alone the next day.

When I was in HI, we had a focus standard for miranda. Any person who was the focus of an investigation must be mirandized. Even if I am speaking to them over the phone and they are obviously not in custody... I don't even know where they are... we had to mirandize. And I did.

As a LEO, I follow the law. That means I follow the law as it is in my jurisdiction. I don't follow the law I WISH we had (personally I am against the war on drugs and I think convicetd felons shouldn't lose their gun rights for nonviolent felonies); I follow the law WE HAVE.

Fortuanately, my state is very restrictive on search and seizure due to our state constitution and I am much more limited in search and seizure than most states and under the federal standard. That's awesome. No vehicle searches incident to arrest, no pretext stops, etc etc. It's great that the state has far less power ot search and seize in WA under our constitution which is much more protective of rights than the 4th

However, when it comes to Miranda case law, we follow (mostly) the federal standard.

I have no way of knowing IF I mirandized the arsonist if he would have not spoken to me. Tactiaclly, and especially because he was a mere person of interest and I didn't have any hard evidence, and certainly not even RAS let alone PC, I chose a case strategy that involved voluntary interrogation and in such circ's based on case law I did not have ot mirandize, so I didn't.

Again, sometimes even when case law says I don't have to, I will. There are tactical reasons where it is actually beneficial to the investigator.
 

PALO

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NO. Most emphatically, NO.

If cops do their jobs right, few innocents would be stopped. If it is RAS, it would not be 'Plenty of innocents stopped.'



I use the term 'stopped' to indicate an investigatory contact, NOT a consensual encounter. If so many innocents must be stopped before finding someone worth 'stopping,' the cops are failing.

Dicta in the courts reasoning is the admission that by establishing RAS as the standard for stops, that many innocents will be stopped. The courts ACKNOWLEDGED that.

In our system of trials (beyond a reasonable doubt), it is a presumption that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted.

RAS is kind of inverse of that, in that it is accepted that many innocents will be stopped, but that the cops have a duty to investigate suspicious behavior and in many cases will either be able to establish innocence OR the cop will simply think the person is innocent when they are guilty but he has no evidence of same beyond RAS, etc.

It's baked into the Terry v. Ohio decision.

If cops are doing their job right, it is necessarily true that innocents will be stopped in terry stops. What %age? Tough to say, and especially because again... just because a cop isn't able to establish PC in a terry is not dispositive as to the person being innocent. Cops can't do evidentiary searches for instance in terry stops (and even frisks are limited to having to establish articulable facts to justify same). It may be the guy I am terrying is guilty as hell, and heck has evidence in his pockets that would prove that. It doesn't follow that *I* can discover such evidence (since I am not going to search unlawfully) and it also follows that a guilty person can appear innocent once the terry continues for a few minutes. The cop will never know.

It's a process analysis, not a results analysis. Thus, it is not true that if a terry doesn't lead to PC, that it was a bad terry, any more than a stop without cause is retroactively justified because the cop catches a wanted murderer in the stop. PROCESS not results are the key issue.

I was terry'd once when I was undercover. I was 'guilty' in that I had a bindle of crystal meth on my person, which I had just purchased immediately before the terry.

The cop didn't find the bindle and I had a great excuse for my presence in the location I was in, etc. such that from HIS mind, it appeared to be a terry stop of an innocent,. Except I know it wasn't, because I was holding (again , I had bought pursuant to my assignment).

He was right to terry, regardless of the fact that the terry led to perceived innocence.

Also, terrys can sometimes help establish alibis and.or help to "field exonerate" a suspect who otherwise might have appeared guilty at a later time, but due to the terry, he now won't be considered a suspect because he was able to prove at the time of the terry that he wasn't the actor.
 

sudden valley gunner

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SVG if you follow his posts you will see that he sees the gun as sign of authority, not a tool for self defense. He has been drinking the Kool Aid.

Unfortunately I think you are right. A friend of mine who is an ex cop has a pretty good rap about cops who believe their authority comes from the gun.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Spare me the rubbish. THe cops were completely justified in taking me down at gunpoint, because they had RAS that I had just committed an armed robbery. And with a little investigation and some explaining on my part, it was clear I was not the perp.

I believe you missed my point. But of course your belief relies on the watered down version of the fourth the courts give us. Before Terry that was an arrest, and for a few hundred years it was an arrest, and by our common law right we have the right to resist an unlawfulf arrest. Bad Elk vs. U.S.

Also the fourth doesn't delineate between types of seizure there are no "gaps" in the fourth amendment. And much of U.S. history a warrant was necessary for any arrest (stop, siezure).

It does not matter, from a constitutional law or a common sense perspective whether I was actually guilty. What matters is the facts and circumstances known to the officer at the time of the stop. Just as an unjustified stop (without RAS or PC) is not retroactively justified if the cops find a bunch of stolen property etc. on my person , similarly if the cops find out the suspect is entirely innocent, that doesn't negate the validity of the stop.

Hmmm interesting who thinks the other's viewpoint is rubbish, especially when you say it doesn't matter by constitutional or common sense......:confused: the constitution matters in all your actions on duty, that is the only way you have any limited authority at all.
It's not a two way street where you can compare cops actions to civilians a cops actions are supposedly constitutionally restricted.....even if you think that doesn't matter.

RAS is the standard and if cops are doing their job properly, PLENTY of innocents will be stopped.

Nope and our state has ruled article one section 7 of our constitution grants even greater protection than the 4th. If you were to follow the constitution strictly without relying on statist judges decisions very few innocents would be stopped and large amount of guilty wouldn't be either. It might not be conducive to safety but hey that's liberty.

That aint a police state. That's the recognition that cops are dutybound to investigate suspicious behavior at the RAS threshold. In many of those encounters, it will turn out to be innocent behavior once investigated. Great
Actually it is a police state when the mundanes have to stop and be forced to endure an unwanted interrogation by the police. And I am glad you feel duty bound to investigate all the power to you , I never said you don't have the right not to investigate, you have just as much right to as I do.

In other circ's it very well may be criminal behavior but the cops won't be able to develop PC at the time of the terry and will release the person. Doens't mean criminal activity wasn't afoot. Just means they weren't able to develop PC. Heck, in many cases I have developed PC long after a terry (or series of terrys) but the intel gathered during the terrys was what started the investigation, that led to the ultimate arrest.

That is legally true as long as the stop or RAS was more than "hunch" or suspicion. You have to have articulable facts that you had a suspicion of a crime.

Regardless, all your wankin' aside, the cops were entirely professional and cool. They did their job exactly how they were supposed to , not in a police state, but in a society ruled by rule of law.

I believe this nothing but an opinion. I would not find it cool or professional to be walking down the street knowing I did nothing and have cops point their guns at me, been there actually got some money for it and training for the PD.

You and I have different views of "rule of law" yours seem to fit a police state. My understanding of the "rule of law" from reading the works of Madison, studying common law and natural law and the history of the Constitution is that saying is much misused, very much how you are using it. It seems to originally of meant that the government was ruled by law, just like the saying "we are a nation of laws not of mean" the free and liberated people were to not to be as restricted as much as possible by law.

And if you have RAS that a person has just committed an armed robbery, you conduct a felony stop at gunpoint. That's basic officer safety and entirely constitutional. They did so. Professionally

Saying it's constitutional doesn't make it so, and officer safety has no authority on law, and in my opinion from your description there was no RAS, just a hunch based on a description no articulable facts.

I realize that any post you make is just an excuse to whine about the police even when, as in these cases, they did exactly what law, policy, and common sense dictates they should do.

Simply not true, some recent posts should show that, by this standard I should assume any post you make is an excuse to bloviate about how great police are. I will concede that both our viewpoints may be biased.

In the case of the traffic ticket, I got arrested but they let me pay bail without getting booked, which was nice. So, it doesn't appear in any database as an 'arrest' in terms of custodial arrest, because I was never booked.

Still an arrest, and a waste of time and tax payers money wouldn't a summons have worked just as well?


Now I hope you recognize that none of my posts are saying I don't recognize how it is, just saying how it should be and a discussion on what the constitution allows. And I hope you don't take anything personal, I love a spirited debate.....:lol:
 
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FreeInAZ

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Dicta in the courts reasoning is the admission that by establishing RAS as the standard for stops, that many innocents will be stopped. The courts ACKNOWLEDGED that.

In our system of trials (beyond a reasonable doubt), it is a presumption that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted.

RAS is kind of inverse of that, in that it is accepted that many innocents will be stopped, but that the cops have a duty to investigate suspicious behavior and in many cases will either be able to establish innocence OR the cop will simply think the person is innocent when they are guilty but he has no evidence of same beyond RAS, etc.

It's baked into the Terry v. Ohio decision.

If cops are doing their job right, it is necessarily true that innocents will be stopped in terry stops. What %age? Tough to say, and especially because again... just because a cop isn't able to establish PC in a terry is not dispositive as to the person being innocent. Cops can't do evidentiary searches for instance in terry stops (and even frisks are limited to having to establish articulable facts to justify same). It may be the guy I am terrying is guilty as hell, and heck has evidence in his pockets that would prove that. It doesn't follow that *I* can discover such evidence (since I am not going to search unlawfully) and it also follows that a guilty person can appear innocent once the terry continues for a few minutes. The cop will never know.

It's a process analysis, not a results analysis. Thus, it is not true that if a terry doesn't lead to PC, that it was a bad terry, any more than a stop without cause is retroactively justified because the cop catches a wanted murderer in the stop. PROCESS not results are the key issue.

I was terry'd once when I was undercover. I was 'guilty' in that I had a bindle of crystal meth on my person, which I had just purchased immediately before the terry.

The cop didn't find the bindle and I had a great excuse for my presence in the location I was in, etc. such that from HIS mind, it appeared to be a terry stop of an innocent,. Except I know it wasn't, because I was holding (again , I had bought pursuant to my assignment).

He was right to terry, regardless of the fact that the terry led to perceived innocence.

Also, terrys can sometimes help establish alibis and.or help to "field exonerate" a suspect who otherwise might have appeared guilty at a later time, but due to the terry, he now won't be considered a suspect because he was able to prove at the time of the terry that he wasn't the actor.

See we find the "rub" between OCers & those in LE who may very well mean well, but have no PC, yet assume a lawfully carried sidearm is PC. Most OCers while being civil, will refuse to answer questions. Why? Because it is their right not to. Many feel it is comparable to being stopped for wearing red sneakers. Both lawful activities. I would never sign up to be a MMA sparring partner? Why? They are trained to pound you into dirt.

Police are trained to find any violation of law period! Even if you feel none occurred. Saying anything will be used against you. So why do it? If you are stopped only answer what you must by law. Many states are not stop & ID states. So unless RAS has been met you are in no way obligated to answer questions. I have politely declined to give officers any information. When one officer continued to push for info, I calmly stated that I had no interest in discussing my schedule with him or answering any questions of a investigative nature. I told him if he wanted to talk about sports, the weather, politics, I'd be happy to chat with him as one law-abiding citizen to another, but nothing more. With that he and his back up jumped in their cars & left.

Guess they didn't want to chat after all??? The person in this case was in a known crime area & was acting evasive. Trying to do the felon shuffle away from the officers was the first red flag in this case. The officers made the right call & got a armed felon off the street.
 
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PALO

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I believe you missed my point. But of course your belief relies on the watered down version of the fourth the courts give us. Before Terry that was an arrest, and for a few hundred years it was an arrest, and by our common law right we have the right to resist an unlawfulf arrest. Bad Elk vs. U.S.

Also the fourth doesn't delineate between types of seizure there are no "gaps" in the fourth amendment. And much of U.S. history a warrant was necessary for any arrest (stop, siezure).



Hmmm interesting who thinks the other's viewpoint is rubbish, especially when you say it doesn't matter by constitutional or common sense......:confused: the constitution matters in all your actions on duty, that is the only way you have any limited authority at all.
It's not a two way street where you can compare cops actions to civilians a cops actions are supposedly constitutionally restricted.....even if you think that doesn't matter.



Nope and our state has ruled article one section 7 of our constitution grants even greater protection than the 4th. If you were to follow the constitution strictly without relying on statist judges decisions very few innocents would be stopped and large amount of guilty wouldn't be either. It might not be conducive to safety but hey that's liberty.


Actually it is a police state when the mundanes have to stop and be forced to endure an unwanted interrogation by the police. And I am glad you feel duty bound to investigate all the power to you , I never said you don't have the right not to investigate, you have just as much right to as I do.



That is legally true as long as the stop or RAS was more than "hunch" or suspicion. You have to have articulable facts that you had a suspicion of a crime.



I believe this nothing but an opinion. I would not find it cool or professional to be walking down the street knowing I did nothing and have cops point their guns at me, been there actually got some money for it and training for the PD.

You and I have different views of "rule of law" yours seem to fit a police state. My understanding of the "rule of law" from reading the works of Madison, studying common law and natural law and the history of the Constitution is that saying is much misused, very much how you are using it. It seems to originally of meant that the government was ruled by law, just like the saying "we are a nation of laws not of mean" the free and liberated people were to not to be as restricted as much as possible by law.



Saying it's constitutional doesn't make it so, and officer safety has no authority on law, and in my opinion from your description there was no RAS, just a hunch based on a description no articulable facts.



Simply not true, some recent posts should show that, by this standard I should assume any post you make is an excuse to bloviate about how great police are. I will concede that both our viewpoints may be biased.



Still an arrest, and a waste of time and tax payers money wouldn't a summons have worked just as well?


Now I hope you recognize that none of my posts are saying I don't recognize how it is, just saying how it should be and a discussion on what the constitution allows. And I hope you don't take anything personal, I love a spirited debate.....:lol:

I'm reasonably confident you don't know what a police state is. But let's stipulate - in this country cops can make brief investigative seizures based on a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity being afoot. Let's stipulate also that if we are a police state, so are many if not most other civilized nations, because from what comparative law I've studied many of these countries have similar standards for investigative seizures.



THere *is* a professional way to conduct a felony stop on a person you have reasonable suspicion on and that is believed to be armed. And that's exactly what they did.

Let's agree to disagree that RAS as an evidentiary standard for brief seizures is consistent with the 4th.

Let's also agree that we are both incredibly well versed on the case law (terry v. ohio) and the history of policing in the US

let's also agree that intelligent, informed, conscientious people can come to different conclusions vis a vis case law, terry, etc. etc. God knows I have spent a lot of time at volokh.com and some very wonkish legal scholars, with the credentials of having briefs etc. considered by the SCOTUS similarly can and do disagree on such various topics.

The only thing I really take issue with is your use of the term "police state". Look it up at dictionary.com

I , for one, have BEEN to a police state. And trust me, after spending some time in one, you will kiss the sacred ground of the USA upon return. We may have our warts and such but a POLICE STATE? That's histrionic absurdity imnsho

And don't get me wrong. I find obama's murderdroning of US citizens concerning, not to mention some FiSA stuff, etc

ANd let's also be clear that if cops have RAS that you have just committed a crime involving threatened deadly force, they WILL prone you out at gunpoint, and you do have a legal duty to comply. That does not a police state make.

I am certainly happy we have RAS as a standard for seizure. It sets a reasonable imo threshold for seizures, and along with community caretaking function etc. allows me to help the public while respecting their rights to be left alone without due cause.

I will say it's at least refreshing to discourse with somebody who is knowledgeable about the underlying topix being discussed.

cheers
 

davidmcbeth

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And I am sure PALO has no idea what a tyrannical gov't is. He is part of it so he is blinded by what he thinks all the good deeds gov't does for the people while having blinders on in respect to the horrible treatment we get from our governments.

They are tapping our phones, checking our financial transactions, checking our whereabouts, and other major spying campaigns for the purpose of just tossing out a all-encompassing net to catch what they call are a handful of criminals.

First step is a tyrannical gov't, next is a police state. And if PALO did not think that the actions after Katrina and the Boston bombings are not police state actions, I don't know what evidence he is looking for.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I'm reasonably confident you don't know what a police state is. But let's stipulate - in this country cops can make brief investigative seizures based on a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity being afoot. Let's stipulate also that if we are a police state, so are many if not most other civilized nations, because from what comparative law I've studied many of these countries have similar standards for investigative seizures.



THere *is* a professional way to conduct a felony stop on a person you have reasonable suspicion on and that is believed to be armed. And that's exactly what they did.

Professional doesn't necessarily equate to right.


(snipped agreed we disagree and have discussed it ad naseum and probably will more in the future)


The only thing I really take issue with is your use of the term "police state". Look it up at dictionary.com

I , for one, have BEEN to a police state. And trust me, after spending some time in one, you will kiss the sacred ground of the USA upon return. We may have our warts and such but a POLICE STATE? That's histrionic absurdity imnsho

And don't get me wrong. I find obama's murderdroning of US citizens concerning, not to mention some FiSA stuff, etc

ANd let's also be clear that if cops have RAS that you have just committed a crime involving threatened deadly force, they WILL prone you out at gunpoint, and you do have a legal duty to comply. That does not a police state make.

I am certainly happy we have RAS as a standard for seizure. It sets a reasonable imo threshold for seizures, and along with community caretaking function etc. allows me to help the public while respecting their rights to be left alone without due cause.

I will say it's at least refreshing to discourse with somebody who is knowledgeable about the underlying topix being discussed.

cheers

We have discussed police state before. Just because you have seen worse in other countries does not make ours not. Some say it's a fallacy argument to rely on a dictionary meaning, I don't I think defining something is important and the dictionary can be a valuable resource.

From Miriam:
a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

From Dictionary.com

a nation in which the police, especially a secret police, summarily suppresses any social, economic, or political act that conflicts with governmental policy.

I would say all our activies are social, economic or political in nature it would be very pressing for me to name any that are not. I would also be very pressed to name any activity or action that is not policed. I also follow Bastiat's and Ludwig Von Mises logic on if the end result is the same as a strict definition of an action or activity or type of government it is the same. e.g. fascism, communism, mercantalism are all forms of socialism.

So besides the recent unconstitutional actions by NSA and the other alphabet soup of the standing army against liberty from Federal level to our local level that police have become.......

Now let's name an innocent activity, like I have a desire to buy a blue shirt. This is a seemingly police free activity on the surface but is it? My wages are policed and stolen, my business is policed and has restrictions put upon it to make the money to buy the shirt. The company that makes the shirt is policed and have to follow restrictions imposed upon it, (if it is imported the importation is governed and policed) the growers of the cotton are policed, the dye makers are, the truckers who move it are, the store that sells it. If any one of these people including myself decide we don't want the unwelcome policing of the state into our lives what happens? If we continue to resist the state most likely using some form of police will kill us.

I personally feel how bad it's in other countries has no bearing on what is happening hear, we should never be satisfied that we don't have it as bad as Nicaragua (yep I remember), we should constantly be striving for more liberty not sacrificing it for the guise of safety that a multitude of policing promises to bring.
 

davidmcbeth

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And if PALO comes to the realization of the truth what would he do? quit his job and get a new one? ha, he would keep on doing what he is doing .. following orders to get a pension...and for a pension that may never come ...
 
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