Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 60

Thread: This Gives Open Carry a Bad Image

  1. #1
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Amelia County, virginia
    Posts
    169

    This Gives Open Carry a Bad Image

    Sorry, no pics, but maybe that's a good thing. Anyhow, as I was sitting in the car waiting for my wife to purchase some things in the Dollar Store, I noticed a young Gentleman(?) enter the store. He was wearing a black bandana and his pants were down halfway to his knees, exposing about half of his underwear. I could not help but notice the butt of a revolver sticking out of his hip pocket. I verified that he was indeed carrying in that manner when he exited the store. He did pull his pants up some when he entered the store, but they were back down when he came out.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 08-02-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    Sorry, no pics, but maybe that's a good thing. Anyhow, as I was sitting in the car waiting for my wife to purchase some things in the Dollar Store, I noticed a young Gentleman(?) enter the store. He was wearing a black bandana and his pants were down halfway to his knees, exposing about half of his underwear. I could not help but notice the butt of a revolver sticking out of his hip pocket. I verified that he was indeed carrying in that manner when he exited the store. He did pull his pants up some when he entered the store, but they were back down when he came out.
    Is that bordering on brandishing? I would think if one is going to carry a sidearm in a pocket it should be concealed or at lease secured properly. I guess the big problem would trying to determine if he was a bad guy. Stereotyping, you bet! We all do it, we all try to figure out the good from the bad...

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    Is that bordering on brandishing?
    yer kidding right?
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  5. #5
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,277
    Was he breaking any laws?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Was he breaking any laws?
    Well, according to the OP the laws of good taste might have been involved.

    This is always a subject that fimnds me in great conflict - the style/fashion is not one I would want to see any spawn of mine displaying, and yet it saves the police (and thgus society) so much time and effort in chaing down and catching bad guys. More conflict because not everybody who dresses that way is a bad guy (in the criminal sense), and yet it serves as a hard-to-miss marker of those I ought to avoid on general purposes even if thy have never violated any actual criminal code.

    This is an example of the same sort of stereotyping that causes many OCers to be mistaken for off-duty/plainclothes/undercover cops - because we fit the mental image someone has of what a cop looks like and provides a "safe" answer to the question of "Who does that person think they are wearing a gun <insert location and circumstances>?"

    I have no shame in admitting that if I were to see someone dressed like that, carrying a gun like that, my early-warning Spider Sense would kick up a notch or two into the more-orange-than-yellow level. But I hope that I would go no further without additional information/evidence.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    I saw this once.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sheetz1.jpg 
Views:	576 
Size:	91.0 KB 
ID:	10686  
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Well, according to the OP the laws of good taste might have been involved.

    This is always a subject that fimnds me in great conflict - the style/fashion is not one I would want to see any spawn of mine displaying, and yet it saves the police (and thgus society) so much time and effort in chaing down and catching bad guys. More conflict because not everybody who dresses that way is a bad guy (in the criminal sense), and yet it serves as a hard-to-miss marker of those I ought to avoid on general purposes even if thy have never violated any actual criminal code.

    This is an example of the same sort of stereotyping that causes many OCers to be mistaken for off-duty/plainclothes/undercover cops - because we fit the mental image someone has of what a cop looks like and provides a "safe" answer to the question of "Who does that person think they are wearing a gun <insert location and circumstances>?"

    I have no shame in admitting that if I were to see someone dressed like that, carrying a gun like that, my early-warning Spider Sense would kick up a notch or two into the more-orange-than-yellow level. But I hope that I would go no further without additional information/evidence.

    stay safe.
    As OCers we are tryin to win hearts and minds. Dressing the part is part of it. Of course this person is breaking no laws, but lots of ill advised behavior is still legal. We enjoy great freedoms in this country, including the freedoms to be a *******. We also enjoy greater freedom of expression freedoms than any nation on earth. I am specificall yreferring to the fact that we don't have "hate speech" laws like most nations. Even abhorrent crap like holocaust denial that is outlawed in nation after nation, is still legal.

    My point isn't that this guy is promoting an image THAT bad. It's that the standard for OCer behavior shouldn't be - "as long as no loaw is broken, it's ok". We should hold ourselves to a higher standard as ambassadors for the cause. It's perfectly legal (ample case law) to wear a shirt with the "F" word prominently displayed. Should we wear such a shirt while OCing? Imo, no

    As for firearms rights, we are WINNING on the legal/constitutional front. Let's keep doing what is working, and for OCers that means promoting a respectable image, not a thuggish image.

  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,277
    It might be just me, but I believe the image is hurt much more by nosy pushy backside of democrat mascots than how a person dresses. When I am out in public I make it a point not to judge and mind my own business.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,509
    Would your reaction be the same (regarding "bad image") if it was a fat white unshaven redneck wearing dirty camouflage?

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,732
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You broke my computer. I had to reboot several times just to type this reply.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,732
    No, I'm not an ambassador of open carry. I have no obligation to dress and act in such a manner to promote a positive image of what open carriers should look like or act like. But, I do believe I have a duty to carry the torch for all our Constitutional Rights. Even those rights to wear baggy/droopy pants.

    I wish all bad guys would wear baggy/droopy pants.

    Don't forget how many of us were dressing at 19 years old.

    When I'm involved in performing driveway auto mechanic work and I need supplies from the auto store I don't change my clothes.

    How you judge my appearance is your problem.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    How someone dresses determines whether or not I will hang out with them, not whether or not they should dress that way.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  14. #14
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Amelia County, virginia
    Posts
    169
    I never said that I didn't think he had the right to carry, just like anyone else. I just think that he presents a bad image for open carry. In particular, I do not think anyone, no matter how they are dressed should carry a gun which is just stuck in his back pocket with no kind of holster. Of course, I could see only the butt, so there might have been some type of pocket holster that I couldn't see. Or perhaps it wasn't a revolver but was instead some type of comb or other personal item which had a rounded walnut butt.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    He also represents a bad image for underwear. Fruit of the Loom would not hire him as a model any more than OCDO would.

    I'm not picking on the OP, just musing. I agree it's a bad image. I'm just stating my opinion that people have every right to be ugly and unfashionable. They should also absolutely expect that we will talk badly about them behind their back.

    I'm more neutral on the lack of holster. Indeed, there are some pocket holsters that are completely inside the pocket, exposing the firearm the same way as if there wasn't a holster, but providing the security of a holster. Guns should be so commonplace that having one in a pocket shouldn't be viewed any more seriously than seeing a knife, a car key, or a a stick of chewing gum in a pocket. A holster is nothing more than a specialized pocket.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-03-2013 at 07:32 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Richmond
    Posts
    163

    henricos advice

    was told by henrico police that I cannot just put a gun in my back pocket, it had to have a means of retention if it were open carried(in a pocket partially exposed as to common observation)...either retain it while oc or conceal it...didnt hassle me, just advised me. I do not carry firearms halfway in my back pocket...it was just a quick onetime thing so dont try to make me cry
    If you can not move at 1100 fps, then pass me by.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,277
    Quote Originally Posted by thedevilrobyjohn View Post
    was told by henrico police that I cannot just put a gun in my back pocket, it had to have a means of retention if it were open carried(in a pocket partially exposed as to common observation)...either retain it while oc or conceal it...didnt hassle me, just advised me. I do not carry firearms halfway in my back pocket...it was just a quick onetime thing so dont try to make me cry
    I don't think Virginia has such a law. Sounds like the Henrico police was blowing smoke.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by thedevilrobyjohn View Post
    was told by henrico police that I cannot just put a gun in my back pocket, it had to have a means of retention if it were open carried...
    I'm not an expert in Virginia, but that sounds like B***S***.

    Hopefully he was just wrongly remembering something from cop school, something that applied to cops as a matter of policy.

    But it's more likely he just spouts what he thinks as law.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-03-2013 at 10:47 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  19. #19
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    yer kidding right?
    A little. It's a bit hard to promote 2A when folks are not responsible. Now if those pants were designed to secure a firearm then that would be acceptable. I to, if I saw such a nimrod my awareness would be heightened. If I saw a responsible look chap with an OC in a holster then I wouldn't. Is called being human...

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    A little. It's a bit hard to promote 2A when folks are not responsible. Now if those pants were designed to secure a firearm then that would be acceptable. I to, if I saw such a nimrod my awareness would be heightened. If I saw a responsible look chap with an OC in a holster then I wouldn't. Is called being human...
    Well, yes, but not all who partake are promoters, nor should they have to be.

    "Responsible" is a relative term, and it would be difficult to quantify. If the gun didn't fall out during the course of his day, can you say he wasn't responsible?

    I tend to take words literally. When you say "acceptable," what exactly do you mean?

    But I agree that nimrods require heightened awareness. But then, so does a well dressed person standing against a column in a parking garage.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-03-2013 at 10:52 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  21. #21
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by thedevilrobyjohn View Post
    was told by henrico police that I cannot just put a gun in my back pocket, it had to have a means of retention if it were open carried(in a pocket partially exposed as to common observation)...either retain it while oc or conceal it...didnt hassle me, just advised me. I do not carry firearms halfway in my back pocket...it was just a quick onetime thing so dont try to make me cry
    You were lied to by a police officer. Sadly, I wish this was an unusual event, but I cannot honestly say that it is.

    You should have asked for him to provide you the code section.

    TFred

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    You were lied to by a police officer. Sadly, I wish this was an unusual event, but I cannot honestly say that it is.

    You should have asked for him to provide you the code section.

    TFred
    We've got dingdongs in every group. Seems like the guy mentioned in this thread is one of them.

    Question here... when you guys organize open carry get togethers, do you issue rules or at least "suggestions" as to certain standards e.g. minimum level 2 holsters or no t-shirts with profane messages on them, etc?

    I would guess that most people here wouldn't wear a t-shirt with a profane message while open carrying, of course.

    I have yet to hear of a single incident of anybody trying to forcibly disarm an OC'er (has anybody),but having a decent retention holder just seems to be common sense to me.

    As for the above statement, maybe he was lied to or more likely (imnsho) assuming the officer is incorrect (I'm not familiar with laws in that jurisdiction) , maybe the officer just was ignorant of the specifics of the law. Many states have statutes that have a subjective aspect to them (such as my state's brandishing statute) about carrying a firearm in a way that "warrants alarm". So, while there is no specific statute prohibiting an OC'er in my state from carrying his handgun by duct-taping it to the back of his head, I think an argument could be made that carrying in such a manner warrants alarm (iow a reasonable and prudent person would be alarmed by such a method of carry... It's a silly example, so whatever.

    For those people who live in jurisdictions where it seems some officers are ignorant of the laws regarding open carry, why not volunteer to attend a police roll call and offer instruction in open carry case law etc? I've arranged for outside (non law enforcement groups) to provide roll call training before and it's been quite successful. Reaching out and trying to work with law enforcement can often reap good results.

    I arranged a roll call once and used a member of my weightlifting team to demonstrate some strength training techniques and it was pretty successful.

    A good way to get an "in" in regards to the roll call training thang is to request to do a ride along and then when you do, and you guys are sitting at lunch or whatever, to bring up the topic. Despite what it sometimes seems officers don't WANT to be ignorant of the law but often stuff gets passed on by osmosis (especially by ill informed training officers ) and it just sticks in the person's brain. It's harder to unlearn bad habits or information than it is to learn the right stuff from scratch.

    We had a roll call on open carry and initially there was some hostility from a few officers towards the idea that - yes you cannot stop somebody and investigate open carrying, no matter HOW MANY people complain about it (and trust me we can sometimes get a dozen calls in a minute or two on the same guy open carrying). But it worked. After that roll call, we had the advantage of being armed with info and now not only do people act in compliance with the law, but a few guys even took up the practice of open carrying on their own off duty.

    I transferred here to WA from one of the most restrictive, anti-gun states in the country. During my FTO I saw some guy open carrying and fortunately my FTO was well schooled (this was 15 yrs ago before it became routine to see OCers in WA) and told me that yes - open carry was legal. I was lucky to have a good FTO.

    I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if one of the open carry groups went to a local precinct of their open carry state and offered to provide roll call training, resources etc. regarding open carry, that they just might get a positive response. What's the worst thing that can happen? The guy says "NO". bfd

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    As for the above statement, maybe he was lied to or more likely (imnsho) assuming the officer is incorrect (I'm not familiar with laws in that jurisdiction) , maybe the officer just was ignorant of the specifics of the law.
    Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I'll let others respond to most of it, but just to fill you in on some of the local issues here, the LEOs in Henrico are notoriously anti-gun. Now, they are still in Virginia, so when I use that phrase, it's all relative, they aren't shooting open-carriers in the streets like you might find in some states, but if you read the sticky thread at the top of this forum that starts "The Tale of Henrico..", you will see that they don't exactly follow the law, either, and they seem to have a little help with that on the judicial side of the house as well.

    TFred

  24. #24
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,121
    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    We've got dingdongs in every group. Seems like the guy mentioned in this thread is one of them.
    ...
    I would guess that most people here wouldn't wear a t-shirt with a profane message while open carrying, of course.
    ...
    If I wore a T-shirt with the word FREEDOM, or an OCDO message, or a quote by Thomas Jefferson many liberals would decry it as a profane message.

    So by who's definition should I go in order not offend any of the holy rollers, or HMFWICs of open carry, or fashion police? I may not agree with the message but the 1st amendment still holds, protected by the 2nd amendment on the field of battle.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    If I wore a T-shirt with the word FREEDOM, or an OCDO message, or a quote by Thomas Jefferson many liberals would decry it as a profane message.

    So by who's definition should I go in order not offend any of the holy rollers, or HMFWICs of open carry, or fashion police? I may not agree with the message but the 1st amendment still holds, protected by the 2nd amendment on the field of battle.
    Yawn. Nobody is infringing on the second amendment when one criticizes certain speech (like an OCer wearing a shirt with a profane message.) This silly stance comes up again and again. Somebody opines that as ambassadors of open carry, the OCer should not engage in activity X because it tends to reflect negatively on us and/or turn people away from our cause and the respnse is something like "yea, but the 1st amendment protects the right to do X"

    No kidding . duh. Nobody is claiming that is not the case. There is ample case law that wearing a shirt that simply says F U C K is entirely protected activity. It does not therefore follow that it's a prudent idea to wear such a t-shirt while trying to promote open carry.

    Grok the distinction?

    I agree with you about how some liberals react to speech. Recall the controversy over the open carrier who wore the shirt with th e quote about ""The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    Some "progressives" at DU were claiming that by open carrying and wearing such a t-shirt, that same person was "inciting" or some other such anti-1st amendment hogwash.

    I recall also the same yahoos claiming that Bill OReilly should be brought up on "incitement to murder" charges for referring to Dr. Tiller the abortionist as "Tiller the baby killer" since somebody murdered him, therefore Oreilly was criminally and civilly responsible. Lol


    I am sure there will be plenty more examples of somebody opining that X form of expression reflects negatively on us, with the totally irrelevant "yea, but the 1st amendment protects X"

    Maybe if you are looking for what words not to wear on a t-shirt while open carrying, just refer to the Carlin but about the 7 dirty words you can't say on television... that's a start.

    The ultimate point is that appearance matters. You can show up in traffic court looking like a slob and as long as you don't violate certain rules about courtroom decor (like some courts forbid the wearing of hats), you are well within your rights to do so. But I can guarantee you, with many judges and/or juries you will be viewed with less credibility and sympathy.

    How about this for a metric? don't dress in a way that you would avoid if sitting down for lunch with your mother, grandmother, and adolescent kids.

    That works for me.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •