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Thread: Close Call

  1. #1
    Regular Member R027's Avatar
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    Exclamation Close Call

    I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son". Luckily I was already moving to turn right since the van turned at this point so I stomped the gas and got out of there quickly. Once home, I started thinking about a few things;

    If I was stuck behind the van, and stuck there at the light (there was a car to my left, sidewalk to the right), nowhere to go, would shooting this guy be justifiable as he's walking towards me?

    If I didn't drive away but could have, would it be justifiable if I shot him?

    If I did shoot him, would it matter if his gun turned out to be a fake/a toy?



    I'm just glad I was able to get out of there without using my gun.

    Thanks for the replies and be safe.
    Last edited by R027; 08-04-2013 at 01:30 AM.

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    Well my first question would be: are you a cop (lol - kidding)

    Rifle beats handgun ... you were wise to move along.

    Justifiable to shoot him? Maybe. I hope you got 100K for court to find out.

    Its unknown what was in the guy's mind and I get the feeling that the entire story is not being disclosed which is probably for the best.

    Where did this occur? Thunderdome, VA?

    You just saved yourself 100K ... have a party and celebrate.

  3. #3
    Regular Member R027's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well my first question would be: are you a cop (lol - kidding)

    Rifle beats handgun ... you were wise to move along.

    Justifiable to shoot him? Maybe. I hope you got 100K for court to find out.

    Its unknown what was in the guy's mind and I get the feeling that the entire story is not being disclosed which is probably for the best.

    Where did this occur? Thunderdome, VA?

    You just saved yourself 100K ... have a party and celebrate.
    Occurred in Woodbridge VA. And that's the whole story, no previous altercation with this person at all.

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    Close Call

    Quote Originally Posted by R027 View Post
    I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son". Luckily I was already moving to turn right since the van turned at this point so I stomped the gas and got out of there quickly. Once home, I started thinking about a few things;

    [1] If I was stuck behind the van, and stuck there at the light (there was a car to my left, sidewalk to the right), nowhere to go, would shooting this guy be justifiable as he's walking towards me?

    [2] If I didn't drive away but could have, would it be justifiable if I shot him?

    [3] If I did shoot him, would it matter if his gun turned out to be a fake/a toy?



    I'm just glad I was able to get out of there without using my gun.

    Thanks for the replies and be safe.
    1. IMO, yes, if you reasonably believed yourself to be in mortal danger. I would have. IANAL.

    2. Only if the answer to #1 is yes and your State has Stand Your Ground. IANAL.

    3. Nope. What matters is what you reasonably believed. IANAL.


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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    I'm thinking that maybe he was trying to return your rifle to you, after it fell from the roof of your car.
    Have you done an inventory?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R027 View Post
    I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son".
    There's got to be more to this story. But you're strapped into your seat, presumably, gun is holstered. You did the right thing tactically which was to escape the kill box. Doubt you could have unbelted, drawn, opened the door, gotten out, found a clear backstop and been able to stop this 'threat'. A rifle in the hand isn't necessarily an extreme threat.

    Did he try to follow you? I'd be concerned if it was on 'your street' the guy might know who you are. Keep aware!

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Did you call the police after getting out of there? While peaceful open carry isn't one of them, I think there is a legitimate time to make a MWAG call.

    As far as having a rifle in hand not being an extreme threat... That's not what you'd be told if YOU tried walking down the street with a rifle in hand, much less if you drove aggressively toward someone, got out rifle in hand, started walking toward them and called out to them in a confrontational manner. I don't know about the case law, but the opinion of law enforcement seems to fairly widely be that anything other than being slung on your back with a strap (not including strapped and on the front) is aggressive and threatening.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 08-04-2013 at 08:58 AM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    By saying not an extreme threat I did not mean to imply no threat at all. If he wanted to shoot the guy he'd have done so from his car door.

    I find the story highly improbable, and questionable. If the guy didn't call the police and give a description, then I'd say he's lying about some or all of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    By saying not an extreme threat I did not mean to imply no threat at all. If he wanted to shoot the guy he'd have done so from his car door.

    I find the story highly improbable, and questionable. If the guy didn't call the police and give a description, then I'd say he's lying about some or all of it.
    Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

    On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.


    For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.



    For the OPer,

    When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

    On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.

    For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.

    For the OPer,

    When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?
    Not necessarily so - we have a long tradition of "trust but confirm" and if it smells funny it will also probably taste funny.

    A fair number of posts not dissimilar to this have turned out to be fairy tails - a nice way of saying untruths.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It's dark, headlights are shining on your car from behind, and the OP manages to see a rifle? Better vision than mine.

    If the story is static then escape is always a better option if available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not necessarily so - we have a long tradition of "trust but confirm" and if it smells funny it will also probably taste funny.

    A fair number of posts not dissimilar to this have turned out to be fairy tails - a nice way of saying untruths.
    If you don't start, I won't. You know my level of patience with you; and you know my skill at debate. I'm going to make one comment below, and then I expect you to drop it.

    By saying we have a long tradition of discussing as though true, I did not in any way say that others closed their eyes or failed to question the posters' credibility, nor that none would try to confirm the story. To say, or even imply, such would require an absurd misunderstanding of human nature. While you might like to add something to my "discuss as though true" comments to fill out the perspective, you blew it with the contradictory comment bolded above.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    If you don't start, I won't. You know my level of patience with you; and you know my skill at debate. I'm going to make one comment below, and then I expect you to drop it.

    By saying we have a long tradition of discussing as though true, I did not in any way say that others closed their eyes or failed to question the posters' credibility, nor that none would try to confirm the story. To say, or even imply, such would require an absurd misunderstanding of human nature. While you might like to add something to my "discuss as though true" comments to fill out the perspective, you blew it with the contradictory comment bolded above.
    You vely funny GI
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by R027 View Post
    Occurred in Woodbridge VA. And that's the whole story, no previous altercation with this person at all.
    No reason why the guy was trying to get your attention? Hey, maybe he was French and going to example his dropping of rifle technique.

  15. #15
    Regular Member R027's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x1wildone View Post
    I'm thinking that maybe he was trying to return your rifle to you, after it fell from the roof of your car.
    Have you done an inventory?


    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    There's got to be more to this story. But you're strapped into your seat, presumably, gun is holstered. You did the right thing tactically which was to escape the kill box. Doubt you could have unbelted, drawn, opened the door, gotten out, found a clear backstop and been able to stop this 'threat'. A rifle in the hand isn't necessarily an extreme threat.

    Did he try to follow you? I'd be concerned if it was on 'your street' the guy might know who you are. Keep aware!
    That's the entire story, luckily he did not try to follow me. I'm thinking its random, I know no one who looks like this guy. Also no car was behind me beforehand, his car showed up after I arrived at the light. I definitely will pay more attention to the rear view and cars around me while I'm stopped at a light..

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Did you call the police after getting out of there? While peaceful open carry isn't one of them, I think there is a legitimate time to make a MWAG call.

    As far as having a rifle in hand not being an extreme threat... That's not what you'd be told if YOU tried walking down the street with a rifle in hand, much less if you drove aggressively toward someone, got out rifle in hand, started walking toward them and called out to them in a confrontational manner. I don't know about the case law, but the opinion of law enforcement seems to fairly widely be that anything other than being slung on your back with a strap (not including strapped and on the front) is aggressive and threatening.
    I did call police but unfortunately didn't have much of a description of the guy or the car. But I was worried for the other car beside me turning left, who would still be stopped at the red light after I drove off. And this definitely wasn't on a strap, this was in his hands, ready for use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

    On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.


    For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.



    For the OPer,

    When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?
    Aggressive tone

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It's dark, headlights are shining on your car from behind, and the OP manages to see a rifle? Better vision than mine.

    If the story is static then escape is always a better option if available.
    His car headlights weren't shining on my driver side mirror, he was so close to my car that my car blocked his lights from shining the side mirrors. Driver side mirror was slightly tilted down. I was able to see his right hand on the heat shield?, that is as much of the gun I saw before I drove away.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    No reason why the guy was trying to get your attention? Hey, maybe he was French and going to example his dropping of rifle technique.
    Last edited by R027; 08-04-2013 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You vely funny GI
    Thank you for proving you're incapable of letting it go. And, must respond with a childish non-sequitur intended to be insulting.

    Rhetorical question: are you going to give us more examples of how you'll go to great lengths to prove yourself right? Up to and including deleting posts and locking threads?

    I know. I'll pull one of your own tactics on you pre-emptively: You're going to detract from OCDO by continuing this argument. But, I won't. It makes the whole forum look bad when a moderator does it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    You vely funny GI
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Thank you for proving you're incapable of letting it go. And, must respond with a childish non-sequitur intended to be insulting.

    Rhetorical question: are you going to give us more examples of how you'll go to great lengths to prove yourself right? Up to and including deleting posts and locking threads?

    I know. I'll pull one of your own tactics on you pre-emptively: You're going to detract from OCDO by continuing this argument. But, I won't. It makes the whole forum look bad when a moderator does it.
    Think it is pretty clear that I was being derisive in a kinder, gentler way to make a point.

    The problem is obvious Citizen - you don't like moderation or rules that do not fit your interpretation of what you think they should be. Interestingly enough, it is not your call. Editing posts, deleting or locking threads are tools provided by the Administrator and are subject to his review.

    Attacking a Moderator for doing his job is therefore akin to attacking/insulting the Administrator - good job. There is a way to properly report improper conduct of a Moderator and it is not publicly, but you have gone that route in the past (w/o success), so does it not surprise me when you repeat your past performance. You must realize what will happen next to continuance of OT posts, right?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    If the van in front of you did not pull away...

    The driver of a "boxed in" car is in a terrible tactical situation, with a rifle equipped unknown person advancing on the driver side from behind. You are not looking at good odds for you in a gunfight. Exiting the car makes it worse, turning on the interior lights of the car, giving the rifleman a better shot at you, and giving up the protection of the door. You don't even know yet, if there are more bad guys behind or in front you!

    Unbuckling your seat belt, rolling down the driver side window, drawing your handgun and shooting at the aggressor while leaning out the window, would not be easy, and would definitely make you an easier target. That amount of time, could very well allow the rifleman to be standing next to the driver window and be shooting.

    Here's what I would do. I would back up my car as far as I could, (which may not be far, if the headlights of the following car were already not visible). I would then cut the front wheels away from the curb and drive out of there, perhaps sacrificing some front fender to do so. Keep your head as low as possible while pulling out.
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    Mistaken Identity.. Happened to a friend many years ago in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

    On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.


    For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.



    For the OPer,

    When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?
    A very similar thing happened to a friend in Wisconsin 35 years ago. He was in a parking lot with cars on either side, loading things into his car to go to the range. A car roared up, slamed on the brakes, blocking him in. Two men got out and started to approach him in a threatening manner. He displayed the .22 target pistol from the range box he was loading into the car. The men exclaimed: You bad MFer, retreated to the car, and roared off. He told us about it when he got to the range a few minutes later. No report to the police. Why would he risk the hastle?

  20. #20
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Close Call

    Because they can go to the police and say he threatened them for no reason. Happened to a friend in Wyoming.

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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    First one to complain is generally listed as the "victim" - falls under the heading of action beats reaction.

    Make the call.......might save someone else from being a serious victim too.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Because they can go to the police and say he threatened them for no reason. Happened to a friend in Wyoming.

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    Exactly. If you get involved in an incident, you are better off self reporting, whether or not it even rises to the threshold where the officer would write a report, you are more likely ime ceteris paribus to be given the benefit of the doubt if you self report X, then if you report X in response to somebody else claiming first that you did Y and you are on the defensive at that point. It's calle CYA and MANY people have reported stuff to me for exactly that reason.

    Those of us who follow the law and do the right thing, and I assume you are in that group, need not fear people reporting to the police what we do. We need fear people falsely reporting that we did something, that we did not do.

    If you OC a firearm, you should at least consider and prepare yourself for what you would do if somebody LIES and claims for example you drew your firearm and pointed it at them. It's difficult w.o witnesses to prove a negative, for instance, nad if there are no witnesses, false claims can hurt you. People get arrested and sometimes even convicted based on people who lie about an incident for whatever reason (revenge, etc.)

    Personally, my defense - if there is no video or audio of the incident in question and no forensics- is my credibility. I can fall back on 20+ yrs w/o any complaint of X. I've had defense attorneys tell me they always know when they get one of my reports that it's 100% truthful. If there is exonerating evidence in their client's favor, they know I'll document it, even though it hurts the case for prosecution, because my job is to be truthful and unbiased, not to WIN a case. Heck, I've had defense attorneys tell me when their client claims X contra my claim of Y that despite their job to advocate for their client, they know damn well Y isn;'t true. That's the benefit of honesty. Engage in it for long enough and you build up a near impenetrable reputation. People will always give you the benefit of the doubt. That's a huge benefit in life.

    There are few things, if anythingm, more important than your character and credibility. If I respond to a scene where I have conflicting reports, one of the first thing I do is database checks on the persons reporting. If one person has numerous convictions for crimes of dishonesty, to include false reporting, and the other has none, and there is no forensics to support or refute either story, guess who gets the benfit of the doubt? In many respects past bad acts are NOT admissible or even disclosable in a criminal trial (sometimes they are if they go towards MO or if they can be used to refute a defendant's testimony, etc.), but they are EXTREMELY relevant in offier's decision to arrest and/or file charges and in prosecutors decision whether or not to charge an individual. I have seen this countless times in the field

    So, live your life clean, establish a good reputation, free from blemishes of dishonesty and hope that no nefarious souls are going to call police and make a FALSE report that you did something evil.

    And imo, the single most important factor in whether people are going to do that is how you treat them. If you are polite and respectful to people, even if you are doing something they don't like, they are less likely to make a false claim against you. It's certainly worked for me. It's not FOOLPROOF, but it's highly effective. even if they are being jerks, asaultive towards you, whatever, BE THE BETTER PERSON AND TREAT THEM RESPECTFULLY. I've had guys LITERALLY thank me for being so nice to them even AFTER I h ad to use force against them (like striking them with a baton) because they know they did a bad act, but I don't pile on verbal abuse and still call them sir, etc. It makes a HUGE diference in wheether people will make false claims against you.

    Again, if you carry OC, consider that false claims CAN be made against you and could put you on the defensive and could even result in an arrest or even remotely possible a conviction DESPITE the fact that you did nothing wrong.

    It's a risk you assume when OCing, because a person making a claim you used the firearm incorrectly will at least have evidence that you HAD the firearm in your possession. It *is* a risk we take when OCing. It is substantially less likely to occur if you have a good rep and if you treat people kindly and respectfully

    Do the right thing, treat people with respect and kindness and you are very unlikely to have to face such a horrible event, though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    First one to complain is generally listed as the "victim" - falls under the heading of action beats reaction.

    Make the call.......might save someone else from being a serious victim too.
    See my other post, but sad to say that is sometimes the case. God knows though that I have frequently arrested the complaining party in an incident when it turns out THEY were the wrongful one. I get protests of "but *I* called 911. You can't arrest *me*!!!"

    Au contraire mon frere.

    Had one of those calls earlier this week. The RP wanted to make a complaint that a person assaulted them. Upon investigation it turned out the alleged assaulter was within his self defense rights and the accuser ... well there was PC to arrest HIM for Crim Trespass I and that is what happened.

    But yea, generally speaking, you are better off telling your story as a complainant (if innocent) than telling it in response to another person trying to get you in trouble. It is given more credibility, ceteris paribus in many cases.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    <snip>

    It's a risk you assume when OCing, because a person making a claim you used the firearm incorrectly will at least have evidence that you HAD the firearm in your possession. It *is* a risk we take when OCing. It is substantially less likely to occur if you have a good rep and if you treat people kindly and respectfully

    Do the right thing, treat people with respect and kindness and you are very unlikely to have to face such a horrible event, though
    100% correct on how a visibly armed citizen should comport themselves, well stated. First impressions and all that. +1 Sir.

    But!!

    Where OC is not made unlawful, and if a cop happens to know this, and does not witness the reported incorrect use of a firearm, then the cop should, though he rarely does, observe the MWAG and then decide their next act, under the color of law, based on their direct observation of the MWAG. Of course, if the MWAG is "reported" to have committed what amounts to a felony, in RSMo anyway, direct observation by the cop is not required and all bets are off. The innocent citizen gets proned out because it was reported that he committed what ended up being a felony.

    If only a cop would make contact with the caller, gather vital information, hold the caller accountable for their allegation, before approaching the MWAG. Unless of course the cop sees the MWAG committing a felony, of course.

    If the "tip" is anonymous, and stays that way, then the call should be suspect and LE should be discrete, though they rarely are.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The problem is obvious Citizen - you don't like moderation or rules that do not fit your interpretation of what you think they should be. Interestingly enough, it is not your call. Editing posts, deleting or locking threads are tools provided by the Administrator and are subject to his review.

    Attacking a Moderator for doing his job is therefore akin to attacking/insulting the Administrator - good job. There is a way to properly report improper conduct of a Moderator and it is not publicly, but you have gone that route in the past (w/o success), so does it not surprise me when you repeat your past performance. You must realize what will happen next to continuance of OT posts, right?
    I have to sadly shake my head at this response. ->

    For a site that, on it's face, supports (albeit, a rather constricted view of [Being: OC over CC]) the Constitution (and yes, I know you're NOT the government (I think )), it seems quite staunch in it's defense of ONLY the opinions in which it agrees.

    WTF.

    I'm pretty sure (as a pro-LEO guy in general) that we've all seen tyranny of Police 'gone wild'.

    Hell, that's why it took me so long to OC [and now I'm fine with it: as it seems everyone else I meet daily is as well ]... disparity of power.

    Just like OC/CCW, moderators carry their weight from the Admins, BUT like a Boss vs Employee, at the end of the day, we carry the power of Life and death and that is FAR more important than a paycheck... especially a $0 paycheck.

    This isn't even a Constitutional issue, inasmuch that, the vast majority here ARE pro-2A... we're also 1A. And, that becomes a problem when you suggest that we've committed some 'crime' via the temerity of challenging "the Administrator".

    IMO, "Moderators" shouldn't sell out their beliefs because the "Boss" doesn't like it IF it conflicts with their own beliefs.

    That said, times are tough so do what you do.

    ***edit***

    Missed a point: I should PRIVATELY exercise my rights rather than 'filming it', so to speak.

    So to speak. Indeed.

    Hell, I'll go talk to the Sheriff in Henderson to air my grievances... oh wait, doesn't exist but, hey! The Admin HERE does and NO ONE should ever point out how he is wrong publicly even if it's via challenging his moderators.
    Last edited by Turbod'1; 10-18-2013 at 02:58 PM.

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