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Probably COULD Have Fired in SD.

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
Let's see~following too closely, then followed by an obscene gesture, and IN UNIFORM to add to it. If I was the OP I would keep my mouth shut about this incident and hope it does not make it into the newspapers.

I remember a incident years ago at medical center where a lady was arrested by the University police. The city police were called for transport. The lady was dirty, and carped her britches. One of the newspaper columnists happened to be in the hospital with his son. When the city police drove away they flipped the University officer the bird. The incident was in the Monday paper and the two city officers received 3 days each unpaid vacation.

I agree with W.W.

Furthermore; Hey Glockster, that'll teach you not to friggen tail-gate people. Being late to your job is YOUR fualt and no one elses, don't tail gate, and follow closely behind someone, and CREATE the dangerous situation, THEN get all p.o.'d off when someone is a [female part cleaning utensil] to you in return. If you had been tailing me, you'd be kissing my back bumper for tail gating me, and I'd be laughing out of the court house with your paycheck in my wallet for, and your insurance company paying for a new rear-end for my Jeep. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you get to act and drive like a idiot.

Yes, the other driver was in the wrong for stopping in the road, and reaching for your door handle. And the driver was in the wrong for not using turn signals to mark a [especially] sudden turn, but you throwing the bird doesn't help the situation, and escalates the situation, instead of de-escalates it.

This whole situation could have been avoided by thinking with your head, not your arse.

Also, Detaining him? running his I.D.? Was you on duty? I assume since you was head TO WORK, that you was off duty, especially sicne you never made a single call to dispatch to inform them of the incident. Did you also help your self to searching him? patting him down? maybe have a quick look in his car? Spur of the moment reaction or not, your actions seem very shady, and something that I'd get media attention and contact your superiors over.

Way I remember it, when my [two past] boyfriends was State boys, when they was not on the job, they was off duty, and the KSP post command would have their ARSES if they did what you did off duty.
 
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PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
I agree with W.W.

Furthermore; Hey Glockster, that'll teach you not to friggen tail-gate people. Being late to your job is YOUR fualt and no one elses, don't tail gate, and follow closely behind someone, and CREATE the dangerous situation, THEN get all p.o.'d off when someone is a [female part cleaning utensil] to you in return. If you had been tailing me, you'd be kissing my back bumper for tail gating me, and I'd be laughing out of the court house with your paycheck in my wallet for, and your insurance company paying for a new rear-end for my Jeep. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you get to act and drive like a idiot.

Yes, the other driver was in the wrong for stopping in the road, and reaching for your door handle. And the driver was in the wrong for not using turn signals to mark a [especially] sudden turn, but you throwing the bird doesn't help the situation, and escalates the situation, instead of de-escalates it.

This whole situation could have been avoided by thinking with your head, not your arse.

Also, Detaining him? running his I.D.? Was you on duty? I assume since you was head TO WORK, that you was off duty, especially sicne you never made a single call to dispatch to inform them of the incident. Did you also help your self to searching him? patting him down? maybe have a quick look in his car? Spur of the moment reaction or not, your actions seem very shady, and something that I'd get media attention and contact your superiors over.

Way I remember it, when my [two past] boyfriends was State boys, when they was not on the job, they was off duty, and the KSP post command would have their ARSES if they did what you did off duty.

Generally speaking, I am loathe to get involved with ANYTHING while off duty, although neighbors will knock on my door wanting my help in some issue. As long as that issue doesn't involve me using my "authoritah" I'll do my best (like offer my NOT LEGAL advice opinion or point them towards resources). Heck a huge part of being a cop is defusing tense situations (REPO MAN) and pointing people towards resources. Enforcing the LAW (tm) is not the majority of what we do.

That being said, the ONLY thing I got involved with off duty was stopping some teen gangbanger who was bludgeoning another with a big ole stick. Unfortunately, I didn't have my gun, but it worked out anyway. That's it. Once incident in 20+ yrs.

Ok, I take that back. There was also an incident where I caught two guys loading my surfboard into their truck and I was off duty. I called the ON duty cops and blocked them in with my car. THAT pissed me off. You don;'t mess with a guy's board!
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
First off, if you don't believe what I have posted I could care less. I think people on this forum know I don't make things up. If that's what you think then venture elsewhere because the only reason I posted this INCIDENT was because I wanted to give people something to think about were they in this situation. I don't have time for immaturity. If you have such a problem believing people maybe you are the one that has issues. I trust people, but I also tell people the truth.

Second, I am WELL aware that firing in self-defense is a LAST resort; this is PRECISELY why I acted the way I did and AVERTED a situation that could have turned into a lethal-force scenario. Had he attempted to open my door with me inside, he would have been doing so forcibly, being as he has NO right to enter my occupied vehicle and I would have resisted by holding the door if possible.

I said I was possibly following closer than I should have, never said I was ON HIS AS*. Even if I WAS tail-gating this individual, does that honestly give him the right to put the lives of others as well as my own in jeopardy by doing what he did on a busy roadway? If this scenario makes logical sense to you then I don't know what to tell you.

If someone has a problem believing I attempted to wave at the driver when I drove by then you obviously have no remorse for anything. Here in KY we TRY to be as friendly as possible, and I wanted to give a show of HUMAN compassion by giving a friendly wave as to say "sorry." He honked at me, not anyone else.

As for getting away, that was NOT possible. Traffic was driving by in the left-hand lane, and there was a side-walk with a close fence on the right. Anyone that knows where I am talking about will know there is no way to escape. Also, being as I am a peace officer in the county this occurred, it was my responsibility to discover what this man's problem was. He was obviously upset and possibly prone to violence. This is not someone I drive away from. Not only this, but had I been able to drive around, he just would have followed me which could have created a greater traffic hazard than was already established. He was very IRATE until he discovered who I was.

Lastly, I have NO reason to "keep my mouth shut" as some here have stated I should. I know who the aggressor was and I know his actions were actions of imminent violence had I not been in uniform. Not only this, but another peace officer witnessed the location of our vehicles in the roadway which would immediately inform a prudent person what had happened. Yes I was not yet ON-DUTY, but I was PLACED in this situation by another PERSON, I didn't place my self into it by CHOICE! Once this happened I couldn't just turn my back on the situation at hand.

I did what I believed necessary to keep this situation from turning violent and lethal. I exited my vehicle at a time when he was several feet away from me which gave me time to get on my feet and also gave him time to see who I was which I KNEW would most likely relieve the situation of violent acts.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
The answer is quite simple and you should be well aware of it - no need to query the forum.

Lethal force must always be the last resort - end of story. Surprised you even asked.

There is "NO" need to have a rational discussion about this incident that could have turned into a lethal force incident? Obviously lethal-force is a LAST resort (see post above), but I would like to know how other's think they would have reacted in such a situation. This is the first situation where I was REALLY placed "under the gun" and I believe I acted rationally and properly. I just wanted other's thoughts had it been THEM in such a situation, and give them something to think about in case a situation such as this happens to them in the future.

I have had plenty of training in the use of force, and quite frankly I am rather indignant at your response. Saying that rational discussion about a situation that could happen to anyone -- and what people THINK they would do in such a situation -- is "surprising" and "unneeded" is repugnant to the idea of such a forum.
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I said I was possibly following closer than I should have, never said I was ON HIS AS*. Even if I WAS tail-gating this individual, does that honestly give him the right to put the lives of others as well as my own in jeopardy by doing what he did on a busy roadway? If this scenario makes logical sense to you then I don't know what to tell you.

.

I never said it was right ... but where I come from, it is the way it is. Right or wrong.

Don't give people the finger
Don't tailgate
Don't "test your brakes"
Don't pass and then slow down
Don't drive slow in the left lane
Don't tell people how to drive
Don't bump people in bars
etc

Don't do these things and you might live to see 95 yrs old.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP I have had plenty of training in the use of force, and quite frankly I am rather indignant at your response. Saying that rational discussion about a situation that could happen to anyone -- and what people THINK they would do in such a situation -- is "surprising" and "unneeded" is repugnant to the idea of such a forum.

There is no love lost between that moderator and I.

With that said, I think the missing ingredient was the KY Code that treats occupied vehicles like homes for the purposes of castle doctrine. I had only heard of it once in the dim past, myself.

Without that statute, "coulda" would seem outa bounds to most any serious student of armed self-defense in regard to an empty hand confrontation.

He jumped the gun. While I snicker at that on the one hand, I can understand it, too.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
There is no love lost between that moderator and I.

With that said, I think the missing ingredient was the KY Code that treats occupied vehicles like homes for the purposes of castle doctrine. I had only heard of it once in the dim past, myself.

Without that statute, "coulda" would seem outa bounds to most any serious student of armed self-defense in regard to an empty hand confrontation.

He jumped the gun. While I snicker at that on the one hand, I can understand it, too.

You are definitely right. I should have informed everyone of the applicable laws so that they could base their opinions off of sound facts.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
I never said it was right ... but where I come from, it is the way it is. Right or wrong.

Don't give people the finger
Don't tailgate
Don't "test your brakes"
Don't pass and then slow down
Don't drive slow in the left lane
Don't tell people how to drive
Don't bump people in bars
etc

Don't do these things and you might live to see 95 yrs old.

We have a WINNING post here.

And don't be the person escalating and claim the other guy (in front of you) leaned on HIS horn, having noticed you braked hard. Sheesh.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
--snipped--
So, what would you all have done in this situation? Would you have stayed in your vehicle and fired once the man opened your vehicle's door? Would you have not fired? Would you have did what I did? Would you have done something different? Keep in mind I was in my POV, but I was also in my official uniform heading to work. Let me also say how you completely lose sight of everything around you when you are involved in a situation like this. I was zoomed in on this guy and NOTHING else.
.

The answer is quite simple and you should be well aware of it - no need to query the forum.

Lethal force must always be the last resort - end of story. Surprised you even asked.

There is "NO" need to have a rational discussion about this incident that could have turned into a lethal force incident? Obviously lethal-force is a LAST resort (see post above), but I would like to know how other's think they would have reacted in such a situation. This is the first situation where I was REALLY placed "under the gun" and I believe I acted rationally and properly. I just wanted other's thoughts had it been THEM in such a situation, and give them something to think about in case a situation such as this happens to them in the future.

I have had plenty of training in the use of force, and quite frankly I am rather indignant at your response. Saying that rational discussion about a situation that could happen to anyone -- and what people THINK they would do in such a situation -- is "surprising" and "unneeded" is repugnant to the idea of such a forum.
No need to be indignant. I was surprised, not outraged or anything similar. Nowhere in the OP did you make the point that lethal force should not be a consideration at that point under those circumstances - you even asked the question as to whether others would have used lethal force.

I could have made more clear my "no need to query the forum" - was intended to relate only to use of lethal force in the scenario described, not to any general discussion of what happened.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
No need to be indignant. I was surprised, not outraged or anything similar. Nowhere in the OP did you make the point that lethal force should not be a consideration at that point under those circumstances - you even asked the question as to whether others would have used lethal force.

I could have made more clear my "no need to query the forum" - was intended to relate only to use of lethal force in the scenario described, not to any general discussion of what happened.

I asked whether they would have "fired" because in such a situation one could very easily believe they are in fear of great bodily injury or death, being as an individual that has NO right to do so is attempting to unlawfully enter their occupied vehicle with rage on their mind. Another reason I "asked" this question is because this topic is discussed often in the Kentucky forum (Castle Doctrine) and I wanted to get different people's possible reaction in a scenario where lethal force would be authorized (allowed) by law; would they have been frightened to the point that they used the Castle Doctrine statute to protect their life.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
We have a WINNING post here.

And don't be the person escalating and claim the other guy (in front of you) leaned on HIS horn, having noticed you braked hard. Sheesh.

He "honked" his horn because he noticed me swerve over and brake at the same time. It is a general reaction when you suddenly "think" you are about to hit someone. He must have thought the same thing from his position because he honked.

Also, how in the world did I escalate this encounter? By giving a friendly wave or by driving away on my way to work thinking all is well.
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
No need to be indignant. I was surprised, not outraged or anything similar. Nowhere in the OP did you make the point that lethal force should not be a consideration at that point under those circumstances - you even asked the question as to whether others would have used lethal force.

I could have made more clear my "no need to query the forum" - was intended to relate only to use of lethal force in the scenario described, not to any general discussion of what happened.

Wait... Are you telling me that if someone A) traps your vehicle on a roadway B) approaches your vehicle aggressively and C) forcefully opens your door, effectively penetrating your only defensive barrier, that you should not even consider the use of lethal force? Surely not, that would be quite absurd to say.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Wait... Are you telling me that if someone A) traps your vehicle on a roadway B) approaches your vehicle aggressively and C) forcefully opens your door, effectively penetrating your only defensive barrier, that you should not even consider the use of lethal force? Surely not, that would be quite absurd to say.
I did not so state nor imply any such thing.

You should read it all, keep it in proper context and not modify the intended meaning.

What I said was "Lethal force must always be the last resort."
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
I did not so state nor imply any such thing.

You should read it all, keep it in proper context and not modify the intended meaning.

What I said was "Lethal force must always be the last resort."

I did not. If I misunderstood your intended meaning, my apologies, but I did not take anything out of context to attempt to pervert the meaning. My bolding below:

No need to be indignant. I was surprised, not outraged or anything similar. Nowhere in the OP did you make the point that lethal force should not be a consideration at that point under those circumstances - you even asked the question as to whether others would have used lethal force.

I could have made more clear my "no need to query the forum" - was intended to relate only to use of lethal force in the scenario described, not to any general discussion of what happened.

If you can follow the following run-on sentence, kudos.
You posted this following several quotes, some his, some yours, and to me it appeared that you were indicating that had he made the point in his original post that "lethal force should not be a consideration at that point under those circumstances", that point and those circumstances apparently referring to those in the original post, there would have been no need for a response such as the one you made, making a point as to the appropriate circumstances under which the use of lethal force should be considered, which would all together seem to indicate that you believe that the hypothetical circumstance presented in the original post did not warrant the consideration of the use of lethal force. The lack of such a point in the original post would actually seem fitting in the event lethal force would be a legitimate consideration in the circumstances, and so it would seem that the only reason to point out the lack of such a point would be if you believed such a point should have been made, indicating that you believe lethal force should not be a consideration under those circumstances.

TL;DR (or TC;DR(too confusing; didn't read)): Again, if I am mistaken in my understanding of your comments, I do apologize.
 
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09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
Unfortunately, if I was in a situation like this, I probably would have had to draw my pistol.

I usually drive with my windows down. Without a safe way out, and with the little protection offered by a vehicle I would have no other viable option.

I don't fight. I will avoid a fight using all safe and legal options.

Luckily, Kentucky law affords me protection under the law if I would have had to use deadly force in a similar scenario.
 

Grapeshot

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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
--snipped for brevity--

TL;DR (or TC;DR(too confusing; didn't read)): Again, if I am mistaken in my understanding of your comments, I do apologize.

No apology necessay - this thread does read like a plate of spagetti.


The primary point offered was "last resort"

First, the defendant must prove that he reasonably believed that his act was necessary to defend himself. This defense is available even if it turns out that the defendant did not actually need to defend himself. As long as he reasonably believed that he needed to defend himself, he will be able to use this defense.

Second, the defendant must show that he reasonably believed that he was being threatened with physical harm.

Third, the defendant must show that the threatened harm was imminent.

Fourth, the defendant must show that he reasonably believed that the threatened harm was unlawful.

Fifth, the defendant must show that the threatened harm was of such a nature that it actually required the level of force that the defendant used.
http://nationalparalegal.edu/public...sp_files/criminalLaw/defenses/SelfDefense.asp

"What if scenarios" can be good exercise, but they are not the end all - every little bit of new detail has the potential to change the conclusion. Monday morning quarterbacking has a luxury not afforded to the players on the field on game day. With lethal force there is no "do over" - no replay of down.
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
"What if scenarios" can be good exercise, but they are not the end all - every little bit of new detail has the potential to change the conclusion. Monday morning quarterbacking has a luxury not afforded to the players on the field on game day.

+1 ... but when asks he shall receive :cool:
 

willy1094

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
201
Location
Nothern KY
We have a WINNING post here.

And don't be the person escalating and claim the other guy (in front of you) leaned on HIS horn, having noticed you braked hard. Sheesh.

Me thinks someone hates anyone with a badge.

If you drive like an idiot I'm going to give you a clue via my horn. Does that give you a reason to stop in the middle of the road and confront me? NOPE!!! If you are acting like an idiot in the street and I let you know about it, does that give you a free shot to assault me? NOPE!!! The number of people driving around with their head up their rears keeps growing. My horn is a friendly reminder to remove your head and pay attention to what you are doing so you don't get someone hurt. If you don't know where you are going find a place to pull over and figure it out. STOP LOOKING AT YOU CELL PHONE. If you make a wrong turn, continue on until you can turn around. If you cause someone to have to make a sudden, unexpected, move to avoid your clueless driving you should expect to be blown at. Even if you absolutely did NOTHING wrong, move one. You still have no grounds to escalate from gestures to something physical.

If I am trapped and someone comes at me while I am in my car I will show that I am armed and pray the person decides they want to continue living. The last think I want to do I shoot someone.
 
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