Probably COULD Have Fired in SD.

katlynn2 · Aug 8, 2013

At the risk of highjacking your thread...

For those of us that are not law enforcement in uniform, is the best option staying in the truck/car? Do we lose the castle doctrine protection once we exit the vehicle? Could/would we be seen as escalating the situation by getting out?

Personally, I wouldn't get out because I'm going to lose any kind of physical confrontation with most men (I'm female and small). I want to keep the protection (physcally and legally) of my truck.

I'm just tossing around a few thoughts...I am in no way trying to criticize anyone.

09jisaac · Aug 8, 2013

Vehicles work well as a physical barrier for most primitive weapons such as hands, feet, rocks, spears and swords (still testing the trebuchet) to a certain extend.

They work equally well as a weapon and as a way out.

Always stay in your vehicle is it is possible.

Castle doctrine would most likely stop at the door of your vehicle.

That is not to say though, that sometimes self defense should not take place solely outside of your vehicle. If someone is shooting at you, your vehicle offers very little protection, especially in the passenger compartment. It may be best to get out of it.

You just don't want to be seen as advancing towards the threat unnecessarily.

langzaiguy · Aug 8, 2013

KRS 503.055 states that:

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or
great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is
intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of
unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered a
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was
attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling,
residence, or occupied vehicle;

If the dude comes up to your window/door is banging on it, I don't think that's justification for shooting. If they are doing it to the extent that they breaking the window or other physical damage, it could serve as justification for shooting--and it would certainly provide some physical evidence.

I have known someone that was involved in a road-rage incident where he and the aggressor both exited their vehicles and my acquaintance received a blow to the jaw that required surgery and/or wiring. I would consider that great bodily harm. Obviously, the potential is there in this situation.

Whether it is legal or not, I think we're all in agreement that it should be a last resort. If there is any option to drive away and escape, that would be the best option.

KRS 503.060:

Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant
upon another person is NOT justifiable when:
(2) The defendant, with the intention of causing death or serious physical injury to the
other person, provokes the use of physical force by such other person;

Though I wasn't a witness to Glockster's incident, it seems to me that both individuals were acting aggressively. That could potentially hurt Glockster's case had it turned ugly.

jackjack · Aug 16, 2013

2 Cents

I only read the first page of the posts, but I'll comment anyway.

I'm no lawyer, but I'm no lawyer. However, KYGlockster says he could have legally used DF. I don't think it was his intention or desire to do so. I think it is a good lesson of how far your actions could affect you. This guy, by my understanding of the law, could have legally been shot.

I think KYG did the right thing with his response to the man trying to gain entry to his car. Pepper spray was a more ethical choice. As for the "friendly wave," most everyone has been guilty of blowing off some steam by pointing their finger to the sky.

I got to give KYG props for saving the guys legal life by not getting charges involved. I can only imagine the "Oh ****," look on his face once he noticed you were in the color of the law. :lol:

Maverick9 · Aug 16, 2013

willy1094 said:
Me thinks someone hates anyone with a badge.

If you drive like an idiot I'm going to give you a clue via my horn. Does that give you a reason to stop in the middle of the road and confront me? NOPE!!! If you are acting like an idiot in the street and I let you know about it, does that give you a free shot to assault me? NOPE!!! The number of people driving around with their head up their rears keeps growing. My horn is a friendly reminder to remove your head and pay attention to what you are doing so you don't get someone hurt. If you don't know where you are going find a place to pull over and figure it out. STOP LOOKING AT YOU CELL PHONE. If you make a wrong turn, continue on until you can turn around. If you cause someone to have to make a sudden, unexpected, move to avoid your clueless driving you should expect to be blown at. Even if you absolutely did NOTHING wrong, move one. You still have no grounds to escalate from gestures to something physical.

If I am trapped and someone comes at me while I am in my car I will show that I am armed and pray the person decides they want to continue living. The last think I want to do I shoot someone.

Listen: THE OP CLAIMED THE OTHER GUY, THE GUY IN FRONT, LEANED ON HIS HORN, after hearing the guy behind (the OP) braking. That's ludicrous. Learn to read. I dislike the actions of road ragers on the highway. It makes little difference if the OP is a LEO - he certainly isn't the first to feel overly entitled, and too ready to shoot someone, an unarmed person, for NOTHING.

The guy in front followed too closely? NO the guy in back followed too closely and BLAMED THE GUY IN FRONT OF HIM. He's a jerk, and the OP is rather dimwitted if he thinks following too closely because the person is going too slowly is a defense for having to slam on his brakes. He knows quite well that if you run into someone's car's rear end YOU will be found AT FAULT.

OngoingFreedom · Aug 23, 2013

Maverick9 said:
Listen: THE OP CLAIMED THE OTHER GUY, THE GUY IN FRONT, LEANED ON HIS HORN, after hearing the guy behind (the OP).

I have done this because I saw the driver behind acting aggressively in my mirrors, then passed me. Sounds like the driver in front had a short fuse or was picking a fight.

Maverick9 said:
The guy in front followed too closely? NO the guy in back followed too closely and BLAMED THE GUY IN FRONT OF HIM.

The OP described the driver's operating style was unexpected (conduct of the turn, sudden/illegal move). Have you never been drawn too closely behind the car in front of you because you anticipated they would do something but they didn't?

I find KYGlockster's accounting of his incident believable. I am grateful he not only told us about it but also asked our opinions. I do not understand your agro towards the OP.

WhistlingJack · Aug 31, 2013

09jisaac said:
Vehicles work well as a physical barrier for most primitive weapons such as hands, feet, rocks, spears and swords (still testing the trebuchet) to a certain extend.
QUOTE]

Please record and post your results of this test, I am anxious to see them.

Sir Diealotz · Sep 5, 2013

WhistlingJack said:
09jisaac said:

Vehicles work well as a physical barrier for most primitive weapons such as hands, feet, rocks, spears and swords (still testing the trebuchet) to a certain extend.
QUOTE]

Please record and post your results of this test, I am anxious to see them.

Click to expand...

I too would love to see the test results :lol:

Back on topic:

Had my share of crazy road ragers in the past. Be careful, there are really stupid people on the roads these days.

DrakeZ07 · Sep 5, 2013

Sir Diealotz said:
WhistlingJack said:

I too would love to see the test results :lol:

Back on topic:

Had my share of crazy road ragers in the past. Be careful, there are really stupid people on the roads these days.

Click to expand...

Sadly, more than a few of them hide behind a shiny badge.

Case in point, when coming home from a nice lunch with a lady friend, I was driving 50mph on US60, of which the speed limit is mostly 55mph.

I'm driving along, about a hundred yards from the turn off onto my source road, when just before I flip on my turn signal, a big KSP Statie's car comes flying up on me. If I hadn't hit the gas and made my turn, I would have been rear ended, I'm certain sure of that! The cop didn't even slow down, just moved over to the opposite lane and sped on by doing WAY MORE than the posted speed limit... No lights, no sirens, no headlights. Just flying down the road like "No f***s given".

Bout gave me a damn heart attack.

I swear, I sometimes wish I had a badge of my own, so I could break every speed limit and scare the feces out of regular drivers... that, or arrest all the other badge-holders who drive recklessly.

This is mostly why I was so harsh on Glockster within this thread. In my daily life, as a civilian, locally, and in other states, I have the misfortune of bearing witness the police, on-duty, and off-duty, abusing their badge, breaking the law, doing what they want, how they want, when they want, with no care in the world, as if they own the roads and places they go. I've been cut-off by cops, on-duty in their cruisers, and off-duty in their private vehicles, I've been ran off the road by them, nearly rear ended, nearly side-swiped. We all have to deal with road ragers, but, those of us without a shiny badge, akin to Glockster's, have to DRIVE DEFENSIVELY, Like we was taught. Not provocatively. When we puny civilians are the victim of a road rager, who drives recklessly, we AVOID them, we give them a wide berth, we leave them alone. We do not tail-gate them, or do ANY actions that are provocative, and any semblance of aggressive. Thank gods the vast majority of law-abiding, defensive driving civilians don't have a badge, have you picture a few hundred million drivers who react the way that Glockster reacted? There'd most likely be a bit MORE than flared tempers in that scenario.

KYGlockster · Sep 11, 2013

DrakeZ07 said:
Sir Diealotz said:

Sadly, more than a few of them hide behind a shiny badge.

Case in point, when coming home from a nice lunch with a lady friend, I was driving 50mph on US60, of which the speed limit is mostly 55mph.

I'm driving along, about a hundred yards from the turn off onto my source road, when just before I flip on my turn signal, a big KSP Statie's car comes flying up on me. If I hadn't hit the gas and made my turn, I would have been rear ended, I'm certain sure of that! The cop didn't even slow down, just moved over to the opposite lane and sped on by doing WAY MORE than the posted speed limit... No lights, no sirens, no headlights. Just flying down the road like "No f***s given".

Bout gave me a damn heart attack.

I swear, I sometimes wish I had a badge of my own, so I could break every speed limit and scare the feces out of regular drivers... that, or arrest all the other badge-holders who drive recklessly.

This is mostly why I was so harsh on Glockster within this thread. In my daily life, as a civilian, locally, and in other states, I have the misfortune of bearing witness the police, on-duty, and off-duty, abusing their badge, breaking the law, doing what they want, how they want, when they want, with no care in the world, as if they own the roads and places they go. I've been cut-off by cops, on-duty in their cruisers, and off-duty in their private vehicles, I've been ran off the road by them, nearly rear ended, nearly side-swiped. We all have to deal with road ragers, but, those of us without a shiny badge, akin to Glockster's, have to DRIVE DEFENSIVELY, Like we was taught. Not provocatively. When we puny civilians are the victim of a road rager, who drives recklessly, we AVOID them, we give them a wide berth, we leave them alone. We do not tail-gate them, or do ANY actions that are provocative, and any semblance of aggressive. Thank gods the vast majority of law-abiding, defensive driving civilians don't have a badge, have you picture a few hundred million drivers who react the way that Glockster reacted? There'd most likely be a bit MORE than flared tempers in that scenario.

Click to expand...

Can you please tell me how I used my "badge" in this situation? Can you tell me how I "abused" my badge in this or ANY other situation? Can you tell me when I "broke every speed limit and scared the feces out of REGULAR drivers," as you have alluded to me doing? I did NOTHING but exercise the DISCRETION that my badge affords me and allowed this individual to go on about his business. I had every right to arrest this individual and for several different FELONY offenses that would have certainly ruined his life. Did I use my "badge" to ruin the man's life? Keep in mind this man showed a wanton disregard for the lives of others by swerving into oncoming traffic and coming to a sudden stop on a busy divided highway. I did nothing but give him a few choice words after the situation had been de-escalated and allowed him to go on his way.

You are making me out to be someone that I am certainly NOT! In fact, I acted the complete opposite of the way that you believe every peace officer in the state acts. I am the most ethical individual you will ever meet, and I certainly do NOT want to ruin someone's life over a bad decision if I can help it. Your remarks are beginning to become quite libelous if you haven't noticed, and I would respectfully ask that you cease with the personal attacks. You tend to lump every bad action that a unethical peace officer commits with those that are NOT committed by ethical officers. You are attacking anyone and everyone that possess a badge for no apparent reason. I have done nothing to you, nor have I done anything to anyone in my jurisdiction. In fact, I have several letters where people have thanked me for being a kind and compassionate individual that listened to their problems and acted in a consistent and fair manner. I will continue to act this way, regardless of all of the insidious and libelous remarks you make about me.

I will also continue to fight for your rights around fellow peace officers who do not hold the Constitution in such a high regard as myself. I have made a few enemies by making my opinions known on issues such as gun-rights and other constitutional rights. I'm sure I have also opened the minds of some to realize that I am right and that they need to uphold and respect their oath, because it is more important than arresting a thousand felons. I will continue to work from the inside to change the way my fellow peace officers think, regardless of how much you try to bring me down with your stereotypical remarks.

Also, you plainly stated in your post that you have witnessed peace officers who have violated the laws of this Commonwealth, yet you did nothing about it? Anyone has the right to file a criminal complaint on someone, regardless of who you are filing on. If I witnessed a peace officer commit an illegal act then that is exactly what I would do if I were you. In Kentucky a citizen can also initiate a Citizen's Arrest if they have witnessed a felonious act in their presence. You always have options, yet you have decided the best course of action is to ignore the unlawful acts of those that are supposed to uphold the law?

KYGlockster · Sep 11, 2013

I would like to thank everyone for their opinions. I would also like to thank everyone who has not attacked me and who had uplifting and positive comments regarding the situation.

As for those of you that decided it was best to attack me for sharing my experience, well I really have nothing to say to you. I appreciate the constructive criticism from those of you that shared it; I do not appreciate the injurious statements from those of you that have yet to attain maturity.

Sir Diealotz · Sep 11, 2013

KYGlockster said:
I would like to thank everyone for their opinions. I would also like to thank everyone who has not attacked me and who had uplifting and positive comments regarding the situation.

As for those of you that decided it was best to attack me for sharing my experience, well I really have nothing to say to you. I appreciate the constructive criticism from those of you that shared it; I do not appreciate the injurious statements from those of you that have yet to attain maturity.

Your reply with quote above makes it look as if I posted... It wasnt' me, just sayin

marshaul · Sep 11, 2013

KYGlockster said:
I am the most ethical individual you will ever meet...

Are you calling me unethical?

KYGlockster · Sep 12, 2013

Sir Diealotz said:
Your reply with quote above makes it look as if I posted... It wasnt' me, just sayin

I have no idea why it did that. We all know the original poster of said madness: Drake.

neuroblades · Sep 22, 2013

After having read this post previously, when I read the following post, it reminded me a lot of this thread. On the other side of this issue, these incidents are a black eye for all of us that carry concealed!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/michigan-concealed-carry-road-rage-two-dead_n_3956491.html

KYGlockster · Sep 24, 2013

neuroblades said:
After having read this post previously, when I read the following post, it reminded me a lot of this thread. On the other side of this issue, these incidents are a black eye for all of us that carry concealed!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/michigan-concealed-carry-road-rage-two-dead_n_3956491.html

Yes they are, but I am sure there are thousands of incidents similar to mine where LAC showed restraint and did not resort to the firearm even though they may have been "legally" able to do so.

That said, with this one incident I am sure we will hear people on the anti side of things that will say they were right ALL along -- even though this has never happened before to my knowledge. This really doesn't make "us" look bad; this does, however, make the individuals involved look bad. How can you judge many for the actions of a few? This happens all to often on this forum, and it should be something we distance ourselves from. I do understand where you are coming from though.

rs3604 · Oct 6, 2013

I agree with most of the posts here. Deadly force as a last resort only. I prefer a life long commitment to A.D.D (avoidance,deterrence and deescalation). Backing up, and calling 911 or just driving away and calling 911 with a plate number seem like good options.If I can't get away then a less than lethal option, like the OP did first, is a good decision. Just my 2cents.

Probably COULD Have Fired in SD.

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