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Thread: Clothes matter?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Clothes matter?

    http://www.grandhaventribune.com/art...estival/584661

    http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2...in-Grand-Haven

    Do clothes matter? not should they matter. Notice in one story the focus was on the young man in a dress shirt clean cut and clean shaven, The other story focuses on a person carrying a sign that says "please don't shoot us..." which pictures do you think the anti's will point out?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
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    Asking them to stay at city hall, kind of defeats the purpose of exercising your 2nd amendment right, doesn't it ?

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    Is that a Serpa next to a police badge? Please tell me that's a police badge and not a CCW badge.


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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=zigziggityzoo;1969116]Is that a Serpa next to a police badge? Please tell me that's a police badge and not a CCW badge.

    QUOTE]


    Wondered the same thing. It does have the color of GH PD badges, but looks a little different. If anyone can find a clear picture of the GH badge, please post. I could only find small pictures on their website.

    Edit to add:
    On watching the video again, the man in the blue shirt appears to be a detective or some other plain-clothes officer. It doesn't appear to be anything more than that. I don't think this event was mentioned here or on MOC. So, I guess unless a person who was present wishes to chime in, I'm going to just GUESS it was a LEO.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-04-2013 at 07:43 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Asking them to stay at city hall, kind of defeats the purpose of exercising your 2nd amendment right, doesn't it ?
    Stay at city hall? WTF? Who's on the PC Patrol? I'm embarrassed....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Yeah I have had similar requests at festivals I have never complied.

    Sent from my AOSP on geeb_att_us using Tapatalk 2
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Yeah I have had similar requests at festivals I have never complied.

    Sent from my AOSP on geeb_att_us using Tapatalk 2
    The problem is that they complied. Now, don't be surprised when the PD asks all open carriers to confine their OC to those parts of town where people are unlikely to see them. Can't wait to see how that turns out. lol
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-04-2013 at 09:54 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    SNIP Do clothes matter?
    Well, yes. Society isn't ready to accept naked OCers.

    Besides, a shoulder or belt holster just looks better with clothes.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Well, yes. Society isn't ready to accept naked OCers.

    Besides, a shoulder or belt holster just looks better with clothes.

    Well played, sir, well played. lol
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DrTodd;1969123]
    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    Is that a Serpa next to a police badge? Please tell me that's a police badge and not a CCW badge.

    QUOTE]


    Wondered the same thing. It does have the color of GH PD badges, but looks a little different. If anyone can find a clear picture of the GH badge, please post. I could only find small pictures on their website.

    Edit to add:
    On watching the video again, the man in the blue shirt appears to be a detective or some other plain-clothes officer. It doesn't appear to be anything more than that. I don't think this event was mentioned here or on MOC. So, I guess unless a person who was present wishes to chime in, I'm going to just GUESS it was a LEO.
    Someone has and brought up that point. You do see a person in a blue shirt that is an OCer but whenever I saw him on video I looked for his badge and couldn't see it. Then when they do a close up you see someone in a blue shirt with a badge....I'm wondering if there was an OCer there in a blue dress shirt AND a police officer in a blue dress shirt who had a badge on his belt.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Yes:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2 BlueShirtOC.JPG 
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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=xmanhockey7;1969166]
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Someone has and brought up that point. You do see a person in a blue shirt that is an OCer but whenever I saw him on video I looked for his badge and couldn't see it. Then when they do a close up you see someone in a blue shirt with a badge....I'm wondering if there was an OCer there in a blue dress shirt AND a police officer in a blue dress shirt who had a badge on his belt.
    The two individuals with blue shirts are visible at the same time early in the video. The one who speaks on camera has a sky blue shirt on, and is seen in all the group shots in the video, the other is only shown in the background, has a dark blue shirt and a visible badge. I'm going to guess cop as well.
    Last edited by Mosnar87; 08-04-2013 at 10:32 PM. Reason: The Doc beat me to the punch
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  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Mosnar87;1969170]
    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post

    The two individuals with blue shirts are visible at the same time early in the video. The one who speaks on camera has a sky blue shirt on, and is seen in all the group shots in the video, the other is only shown in the background, has a dark blue shirt and a visible badge. I'm going to guess cop as well.
    You mean like the picture I posted above (lol): 2 different men, one in the foreground, one in the background.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Kudo's to the opencarriers! WTF to the police? They asked the open carriers to remain at city hall so they didn't get overwhelmed by 911 calls??? They ever hear of training dispatchers to ask questions? Seriously, if they are that easily overwhelmed, how safe could anyone really feel there?
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    I'm having an open carry event in my basement with the shades drawn and the light out. Anyone wanting to come, please use the back door and stay low.
    Last edited by casper; 08-04-2013 at 11:22 PM.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    this is news to me...:
    "However, a pistol can’t be carried in public where it violates the local ordinance."
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Stay at city hall? WTF? Who's on the PC Patrol? I'm embarrassed....
    me too.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  18. #18
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Kudo's to the opencarriers! WTF to the police? They asked the open carriers to remain at city hall so they didn't get overwhelmed by 911 calls??? They ever hear of training dispatchers to ask questions? Seriously, if they are that easily overwhelmed, how safe could anyone really feel there?
    I'll elaborate - if they are so easily swamped by calls (their words basically), all it would take would be a dozen "bad people" with throw away cell phones from walmart to render the entire town defensless while units respond to bogus MWAG calls while ( insert evil doer group name here ) does whatever the heck they want.

    I would be embarrassed to be a cop in this town, as according to them, they are so easily turned upside down by simple phone calls...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DrTodd;1969181]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post

    You mean like the picture I posted above (lol): 2 different men, one in the foreground, one in the background.
    Good find. I figured as much, but only watched the video once.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I'll elaborate - if they are so easily swamped by calls (their words basically), all it would take would be a dozen "bad people" with throw away cell phones from walmart to render the entire town defensless while units respond to bogus MWAG calls while ( insert evil doer group name here ) does whatever the heck they want.

    I would be embarrassed to be a cop in this town, as according to them, they are so easily turned upside down by simple phone calls...
    Barney is just happy to be working......
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  21. #21
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Barney is just happy to be working......
    For sure! +1
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #22
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    The clothes do matter. They shouldn't but they do.
    Last edited by casper; 08-06-2013 at 11:49 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    The clothes do matter. They shouldn't but they do.
    True that. ime, appearance and attitude are hugely predictive of outcome in the game of life. Like it or not.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Clothes matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    True that. ime, appearance and attitude are hugely predictive of outcome in the game of life. Like it or not.
    Clothes are a type of nonverbal communication, like you said...it is what it is.

    I don't think Raggs means to imply a person needs to wear a suit when OCing. I think what he's saying is that when you go into public acting as a representative of a group, even informally, paying attention to the way one clothes themselves deserves some consideration. Am I saying that a person shouldn't OC in shorts and T-shirt when going about their daily activities? Not at all. What I think prudent, though, is when a person represents the larger OC community, one should attempt to dress as well as, or slightly better than, the general public also present. A collared shirt, although not absolutely necessary, would have probably been more appropriate for that person to wear.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Clothes are a type of nonverbal communication, like you said...it is what it is.

    I don't think Raggs means to imply a person needs to wear a suit when OCing. I think what he's saying is that when you go into public acting as a representative of a group, even informally, paying attention to the way one clothes themselves deserves some consideration. Am I saying that a person shouldn't OC in shorts and T-shirt when going about their daily activities? Not at all. What I think prudent, though, is when a person represents the larger OC community, one should attempt to dress as well as, or slightly better than, the general public also present. A collared shirt, although not absolutely necessary, would have probably been more appropriate for that person to wear.
    Completely agree. While it is rare for me to wear a suit, I generally do so while attending city commission meetings.

    To me it comes down to objective. If your objective is just to go about your daily business, then no matter. However, if your are trying to represent the larger group, then dressing better will better facilitate acceptance.
    Last edited by bigt8261; 08-07-2013 at 01:26 PM.

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