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Am I being detained?

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
He stopped you for OC? Did he actually tell you that?

That's messed up, if so.

I oc in WA and the case law is crystal clear. They can't stop you for OC. I'd be contacting the chief if it happened to me.

I think it's funny he was shocked. I get that question maybe once every coupe of weeks. Granted,I am totally kewl with it.

Yes, he was making contact for OC only. He started out claiming to support the 2nd Amendment, yada yada.... Claimed he wanted to make sure my friend and I were not some of the local known bad guys... I figured if he didn't know me then I was not a known anyone. Period.


I was arrested by Snohomish County Deputies for OC. They wanted to know who I was and I asked them to cite a law requiring me to answer their questions.
I was then charged with obstruction of an officer or obstructing an officer. The public pretender implied that she wanted me to take plea deal. I told her not only no but hell no and that she had better do her job. A few, too many, court visits later and the charges were dropped.

PALO, I still think we could talk, it would be nice to have a positive encounter even with an off duty cop.
 

PALO

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Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
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Kent
Yes, he was making contact for OC only. He started out claiming to support the 2nd Amendment, yada yada.... Claimed he wanted to make sure my friend and I were not some of the local known bad guys... I figured if he didn't know me then I was not a known anyone. Period.


I was arrested by Snohomish County Deputies for OC. They wanted to know who I was and I asked them to cite a law requiring me to answer their questions.
I was then charged with obstruction of an officer or obstructing an officer. The public pretender implied that she wanted me to take plea deal. I told her not only no but hell no and that she had better do her job. A few, too many, court visits later and the charges were dropped.

PALO, I still think we could talk, it would be nice to have a positive encounter even with an off duty cop.

Well, imo he may support the 2nd amendment but he's ignorant as heck on how it applies ... because we both know you can't stop somebody to SEE if you are a bad guy. That kind of comes BEFORE the stop,. nu?

The idea is pretty ridiculous too. In my entire career I've never seen a convicted felon or anybody else legally prohibited from carrying a firearm who was carrying openly. That would be, as we say in Rhode Island, Wicked Retahded. Seriously. If you see a guy OC'ing, you can be about 99 9/10 certain that they are NOT a bad guy. It's about as certain an indicator of law abidingness as if he's a 70 yr old retired mormon accountant.

And the Sno county thang is obviously messed up too, but at least you stuck to your guns, no pun intended. How long ago was the Sno County thing? Ime, cops are a LOT better on OC now than they were even a few years ago - roll call training, etc.

That's why I recommend if your local PD doesn't have a policy or training vis a vis open carriers, recommend they get some or volunteer to come in and do the training yourself. No PD in WA state has any excuse in August of 2013 to not know the law on OC'ing.

Talking is cool. I've been known to talk
Cheers
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Well, imo he may support the 2nd amendment but he's ignorant as heck on how it applies ... because we both know you can't stop somebody to SEE if you are a bad guy. That kind of comes BEFORE the stop,. nu?

The idea is pretty ridiculous too. In my entire career I've never seen a convicted felon or anybody else legally prohibited from carrying a firearm who was carrying openly. That would be, as we say in Rhode Island, Wicked Retahded. Seriously. If you see a guy OC'ing, you can be about 99 9/10 certain that they are NOT a bad guy. It's about as certain an indicator of law abidingness as if he's a 70 yr old retired mormon accountant.

And the Sno county thang is obviously messed up too, but at least you stuck to your guns, no pun intended. How long ago was the Sno County thing? Ime, cops are a LOT better on OC now than they were even a few years ago - roll call training, etc.

That's why I recommend if your local PD doesn't have a policy or training vis a vis open carriers, recommend they get some or volunteer to come in and do the training yourself. No PD in WA state has any excuse in August of 2013 to not know the law on OC'ing.

Talking is cool. I've been known to talk
Cheers

Sno. Co. Was just about 16 months ago.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Well, imo he may support the 2nd amendment but he's ignorant as heck on how it applies ... because we both know you can't stop somebody to SEE if you are a bad guy. That kind of comes BEFORE the stop,. nu?

The idea is pretty ridiculous too. In my entire career I've never seen a convicted felon or anybody else legally prohibited from carrying a firearm who was carrying openly. That would be, as we say in Rhode Island, Wicked Retahded. Seriously. If you see a guy OC'ing, you can be about 99 9/10 certain that they are NOT a bad guy. It's about as certain an indicator of law abidingness as if he's a 70 yr old retired mormon accountant.

And the Sno county thang is obviously messed up too, but at least you stuck to your guns, no pun intended. How long ago was the Sno County thing? Ime, cops are a LOT better on OC now than they were even a few years ago - roll call training, etc.

That's why I recommend if your local PD doesn't have a policy or training vis a vis open carriers, recommend they get some or volunteer to come in and do the training yourself. No PD in WA state has any excuse in August of 2013 to not know the law on OC'ing.

Talking is cool. I've been known to talk
Cheers

FBI did a study a few years back that said exactly that: Those with ill intent do not openly carry their weapons until they wish to use them illegally.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Palo This is a legitimate question based on my past experiences. You say;

"Not answering that question could get you arrested, although a GOOD officer will give you ample warning e.g. "if you don't tell me your name, you will be arrested" or something like that. That is good practice and consistent with verbal judo principles"

How do I know if the officer is telling the truth and in fact can arrest me for not telling him my name.

I have had Cops tell me your buddy just told us the whole story you might as well come clean because we already know.

If you tell us what you did we will not arrest you.

If you do not tell us the whole story your girlfriend/wife is going to jail right now.

I never fell for any of that but it sure did not prevent them from lying in an attempt to get PC to arrest me.

I have been lied to by Cops so many times that I do not trust anything that comes out of their mouths on the street. On the other hand I have been good friends with several Cops over the years one of which spent a lot of time attempting to put me in jail based on misinformation supplied by an informant. 25 years later we sat down over a six pack and both of us were shocked to learn how wrong we were about the other. I never did the crimes he thought I had, I was shocked to know that he thought I had. That explained the search warrants and all those stops where I was proned out and searched.

Your thoughts
 

PALO

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Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Palo This is a legitimate question based on my past experiences. You say;

"Not answering that question could get you arrested, although a GOOD officer will give you ample warning e.g. "if you don't tell me your name, you will be arrested" or something like that. That is good practice and consistent with verbal judo principles"

How do I know if the officer is telling the truth and in fact can arrest me for not telling him my name.

I have had Cops tell me your buddy just told us the whole story you might as well come clean because we already know.

If you tell us what you did we will not arrest you.

If you do not tell us the whole story your girlfriend/wife is going to jail right now.

I never fell for any of that but it sure did not prevent them from lying in an attempt to get PC to arrest me.

I have been lied to by Cops so many times that I do not trust anything that comes out of their mouths on the street. On the other hand I have been good friends with several Cops over the years one of which spent a lot of time attempting to put me in jail based on misinformation supplied by an informant. 25 years later we sat down over a six pack and both of us were shocked to learn how wrong we were about the other. I never did the crimes he thought I had, I was shocked to know that he thought I had. That explained the search warrants and all those stops where I was proned out and searched.

Your thoughts

Generally speaking, there is a body of case law surrounding miranda that governs what "tactical deception" (lies) can be used and what can't regarding getting you to divulge X. Cops can't engage in ruses that "shock the conscience". for example. they can't pose as a priest to get you to confess to them. Some cops in WA wrote a ruse letter to a suspect in order to get his DNA (cause he;d lick the return envelope). The courts ruled that lie did not shock the conscience.

There was a case where a cop used a colander and a Xerox machine and told a suspect it was a lie detector. and put a piece of paper in the Xerox machine that said "you are lying" to get the perp to think it was catching him in lies and he needed to tell the truth.

That was kosher per the courts.

I can't go into endless detail about what can and can't be used to convince you to tell them the truth because it literally would be an endless wall of text, but I can tell you if you have waived your right to remain silent, cops can engage in pretty inventive ruses to get you to tell the truth. However, they are substantially more limited in engaging in ruses to get you to talk in the first place (iow if you haven'[t explicity waived your right to remain silent). Those are very different situations and the courts frown on cops using trickery or pressure to get somebody to waive their rights in the first place. For example, if a cop said "you won't get any jail time if you agree to talk to me now" that confession would get suppressed in a heartbeat

You are asking a bunch of very broad questions that would require a LOT of case law to discuss in detail.

PERSONALLY, I almost never use tactical deception (lies) no matter what. Imo, my credibility is more important than getting any particular confession or whatever, and I frequently deal with the same criminals over and over. I would way rather have rock hard credibility and trust, from criminals, defense attorneys, prosecutors, etc. where they KNOW if I say X, that X is absolutely the truth. Imo, nothing is more important to a cop than his credibility. Nothing.

That's not to say that I don't think tactical deception is ethical. In some situations I think it is, and if you study enough game theory (googe "prisoner's dilemma" ) I think you might agree with me.

Again, lots of case law. During interrogations cops cannot lie about penalties e.g. they can't say "if you tell me the truth, I will make sure the prosecutor offers you probation". If that's a lie, that vitiates the confession you gave in response to that

Cops cannot pressure you TO waive your rights, but they can use certain forms of pressure IF you have waived your rights, to try to get the right story.

A cop certainly can't lie like if you ask him "am I free to leave" and he says "yes" and then you walk away and he arrests you because you were NOT free to leave. That would never fly in court.

google tactical deception police practices etc. and you can find TONS of case law if you are really interested. The most basic rule I can explain is that cops can't lie such that the lie would entice an INNOCENT person to confess, they can't lie such that it pressures a person to waive their rights. The waiver has to be voluntary and informed. They can lie in those situations like saying your partner confessed already when he hasn't.. That's a common tactic and perfectly legal.

If I can toot my own horn here. I consider myself pretty talented at getting confessions and that's WITHOUT using lies. However, one of my beat partners worked homicide for about 10 yrs though and works patrol now. Her interview / interrogation technique is frigging absolutely insanely good. It's a beautiful thing to behold. I would love to one day be as good at interrogation as she is. I went to grad school for psychology and learned a fair bit about interviews there, but she is on an entirely different level. She can get inside somebody's head like nobody's business and when she is talking to them, they want to confess. It's just beautiful. And I've never once see her do anything remotely resembling lying. She is totally straightforward. We are damn lucky to have her as one of the good guys, and doing god's work getting confessions from some bad actors. She is quite a force for justice. Just amazing.
 
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Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
Hmm I prefer the question in another form-
"why am I being detained? am I free to leave?"

If I have committed no crimes and I am approached by a member of law enforcement and I feel I am not free to leave then I am being detained via the seizure of my person.

This is pretty obvious because unless I contact law enforcement myself, I specifically DO NOT interact with them. they are a public servant providing a service, if I am not in need of their service I have no reason to speak with them.

As per terry, if there is no reasonable articulable suspicion that I am committing or about to commit a crime then I cannot legally be detained, questioned, searched or ID'd

If I am told that I actually am being detained then the next step is to inquire as to what crime I am being investigated for (the officer may be ignorant of the law and be in violation of DeBerry V US for example. and think I can be stopped for simple lawful carry).
 
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SFCRetired

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Better safe than sorry. You don't know if you are getting a good cop or a bad cop in the field.

That's it, right there! I've known cops who were some of the nicest, most honest people you would ever want to meet. One I called "Brother" for a time. On the other side of the coin, I've also known cops that I had ample reason to avoid any conversation with them, on or off duty.

If the cop is on duty and unless I called him, I have nothing to say other than a friendly greeting of "Good morning" or "Good day." This is especially true if he/she approaches me first and starts asking questions.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
That's it, right there! I've known cops who were some of the nicest, most honest people you would ever want to meet. One I called "Brother" for a time. On the other side of the coin, I've also known cops that I had ample reason to avoid any conversation with them, on or off duty.

If the cop is on duty and unless I called him, I have nothing to say other than a friendly greeting of "Good morning" or "Good day." This is especially true if he/she approaches me first and starts asking questions.

+1 yep, it's sad but it's they who put us in this position not us.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Generally speaking, there is a body of case law surrounding miranda that governs what "tactical deception" (lies) can be used and what can't regarding getting you to divulge X. Cops can't engage in ruses that "shock the conscience". for example. they can't pose as a priest to get you to confess to them. Some cops in WA wrote a ruse letter to a suspect in order to get his DNA (cause he;d lick the return envelope). The courts ruled that lie did not shock the conscience.

There was a case where a cop used a colander and a Xerox machine and told a suspect it was a lie detector. and put a piece of paper in the Xerox machine that said "you are lying" to get the perp to think it was catching him in lies and he needed to tell the truth.

That was kosher per the courts.

I can't go into endless detail about what can and can't be used to convince you to tell them the truth because it literally would be an endless wall of text, but I can tell you if you have waived your right to remain silent, cops can engage in pretty inventive ruses to get you to tell the truth. However, they are substantially more limited in engaging in ruses to get you to talk in the first place (iow if you haven'[t explicity waived your right to remain silent). Those are very different situations and the courts frown on cops using trickery or pressure to get somebody to waive their rights in the first place. For example, if a cop said "you won't get any jail time if you agree to talk to me now" that confession would get suppressed in a heartbeat

You are asking a bunch of very broad questions that would require a LOT of case law to discuss in detail.

PERSONALLY, I almost never use tactical deception (lies) no matter what. Imo, my credibility is more important than getting any particular confession or whatever, and I frequently deal with the same criminals over and over. I would way rather have rock hard credibility and trust, from criminals, defense attorneys, prosecutors, etc. where they KNOW if I say X, that X is absolutely the truth. Imo, nothing is more important to a cop than his credibility. Nothing.

That's not to say that I don't think tactical deception is ethical. In some situations I think it is, and if you study enough game theory (googe "prisoner's dilemma" ) I think you might agree with me.

Again, lots of case law. During interrogations cops cannot lie about penalties e.g. they can't say "if you tell me the truth, I will make sure the prosecutor offers you probation". If that's a lie, that vitiates the confession you gave in response to that

Cops cannot pressure you TO waive your rights, but they can use certain forms of pressure IF you have waived your rights, to try to get the right story.

A cop certainly can't lie like if you ask him "am I free to leave" and he says "yes" and then you walk away and he arrests you because you were NOT free to leave. That would never fly in court.

google tactical deception police practices etc. and you can find TONS of case law if you are really interested. The most basic rule I can explain is that cops can't lie such that the lie would entice an INNOCENT person to confess, they can't lie such that it pressures a person to waive their rights. The waiver has to be voluntary and informed. They can lie in those situations like saying your partner confessed already when he hasn't.. That's a common tactic and perfectly legal.

If I can toot my own horn here. I consider myself pretty talented at getting confessions and that's WITHOUT using lies. However, one of my beat partners worked homicide for about 10 yrs though and works patrol now. Her interview / interrogation technique is frigging absolutely insanely good. It's a beautiful thing to behold. I would love to one day be as good at interrogation as she is. I went to grad school for psychology and learned a fair bit about interviews there, but she is on an entirely different level. She can get inside somebody's head like nobody's business and when she is talking to them, they want to confess. It's just beautiful. And I've never once see her do anything remotely resembling lying. She is totally straightforward. We are damn lucky to have her as one of the good guys, and doing god's work getting confessions from some bad actors. She is quite a force for justice. Just amazing.

Thank you Palo that is very informative, thanks for answering the question in the spirit it was asked. It has been years since I was detained like that if I had known what I know now life would have been a lot smoother and riding my Harley would have been much more pleasant. I'll leave it at that BTW no convictions not even for the time I was arrested for disturbing the peace in a bar with a rock & roll band going full steam, LOL
 

OC for ME

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
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White Oak Plantation
<snip> Usually, as with most Terry Stops, there is not even a police report to document that it ever happened. <snip>
Demand a contact report. If the officer refuses report him to his boss. A Terry stop is a very invasive invasion of privacy and a seizure under the 4A. Citizens cannot prevent a Terry stop but we can hold the cop accountable, to explain in writing, why he selected you out of the crowd.

<snip> That's why I recommend if your local PD doesn't have a policy or training vis a vis open carriers, recommend they get some or volunteer to come in and do the training yourself. No PD in WA state has any excuse in August of 2013 to not know the law on OC'ing. <snip>
Do your civic duty and demand your LEA provide a list of cops who have not been trained properly, as of August 2013, regarding the laws applicable to OC. Make sure you get that response in writing.

This site has many threads that will show the folly that is talking to a cop, without a attorney doing your talking for you. Talk to a attorney not to a cop. If a good cop, like PALO, takes you downtown for you trying to unlock your car door using a coat hanger make him accountable for his acts under the color of law. There is no law that states running a coat hanger down a window is against the law. There is a law against taking a car that is not yours, or damaging a car that is not yours. PALO is using his experience (a hunch in this case, and hunches are a no-no even for a Terry stop) to presume that the car is not yours. This presumption by PALO is anti-liberty.
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
Palo: I appreciate your insights into this topic. As a normal OC citizen, I simply do not know the kind of cop that I may see on the streets. I understand most are good and do their jobs well, but it may be just my luck that I get one on an "authority trip." There are a couple of folks that I know that want to be LEO's but I would never trust them with a badge and a gun.

It has been my observation since I started carrying that perception is reality. How you carry yourself reflects how people perceive you regardless of whether you are carrying a firearm or not. The example you gave about getting locked out of a car and trying to force the lock is a good example. A reasonable person would conclude without any other facts that observing this behavior may be attempted auto theft. Granted, the person has the right to not say anything, but the officer has RAS or PC based on the information that he knows.

If I am engaging in legal behavior, I do not expect to be contacted or asked questions about what I am doing. In that case, if an officer decides he wants to fish I would ask "why am I being detained?" or "am I free to leave?" More departments in WA understand this I think. I know Renton PD has been called on me once or twice while I was OC because I saw them watching me and they weren't patronizing the establishment I was in. They never approached or engaged me at all. On occasion when an officer has been in the same establishment as myself while OC, we simply went about our business, (one time, even to the consternation of a couple of other patrons who were annoyed that the officer wouldn't talk to me about my gun). This is the kind of behavior I expect and I respect officers and agencies that know what the law is and know how to handle a citizen OCing.

Of course, in our case as firearm owners there is the possibility of having to use our weapons in self-defense. In that case the only information I would provide is my name, CPL, and state "it is my intention to fully cooperate, but I will only answer questions with a lawyer present." Under those circumstances, I do not want to accidentally say something that would be used against me. Like I said above, perception is reality. Even if I know (believe) I acted lawfully, the perceptions of the officers will dictate their response towards me. Regardless of that perception, using force, especially deadly force in self-defense I would keep my mouth shut even if such silence would result in being formally arrested.

Lastly, regarding the tactic of tactical deception police use to illicit a response: I find the practice to be a dishonorable one although it is legal and has been upheld by the courts. Most people you probably talk to aren't all that bright. My perception of an officer that uses that kind of tactic on me would lead me to conclude that he or she thinks me as such. I am not a moron and would not respond well to being lied to or manipulated into answering a question. My response would be to simply not say anything at that point - with a "you're kidding me right" look on my face and ask for a lawyer. Circumstances may create a big CF for me then, but I would rather explain to a judge then anyway.
 
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509rifas

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
252
Location
Yakima County
A few things...

1)Words alone cannot be obstruction in Washington, period. The police may tell you otherwise, so correct them.
2)The crime is resisting a LAWFUL arrest. I know a guy who struggled with them when they were putting the handcuffs on; since there was no arrest for any other offense, he wasn't resisting a LAWFUL arrest, just resisting detention. :)
3)There are a lot of objective factors that you can look at to see if you would be legally considered detained. Overhead lights on, demanding ID, ordering your movement, obstructing or blocking your movement, intimidating presence, etc. They should all be learned.

My lunch break is over...
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP I am confident most people here WILL say never agree to an intervbiew (or interrogation) with the police. I once had a DEFENSE ATTORNEY not only agree to an interrogation after arrest, but he provided a formal written statement. Because of that statement, I did not arrest him (it provided substantial doubt that he was guilty) and when I got the formal decline from the prosecutor's office, they cited the information divulged in his statement as their reason for not preferring charges. So clearly it benefitied him, and he's a lawyer, exactly the person who would CLAIM never agree to an interview w/o a lawyer present. Clearly he knew better

So, what's your confused point here?

It seems to be, don't make any statements until your attorney is present.

Or, is it, if you are a defense attorney, and know how to navigate the pitfalls of police questioning, you're good to go?

Hmmmmm?
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Generally speaking, there is a body of case law surrounding miranda that governs what "tactical deception" (lies) can be used and what can't regarding getting you to divulge X. Cops can't engage in ruses that "shock the conscience". for example. they can't pose as a priest to get you to confess to them.

Cite, please.

Forum Rule #5.
 

Obi Wan

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Messages
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Location
Washington, Spokane
So, what's your confused point here?

It seems to be, don't make any statements until your attorney is present.

Or, is it, if you are a defense attorney, and know how to navigate the pitfalls of police questioning, you're good to go?

Hmmmmm?

Oh my.
And I thought asking if I were being detained was confrontational.

I am aware that text on a forum, even with emoticons, can be mis-interpreted, but PALO's point seems self evident to me.

Although my OP was pretty narrow in scope, referring to only the situation of being approached by LEO while OC and doing nothing illegal, others have taken it much further, and claimed that it is never prudent to speak to an LEO at all.

It would seem that you have had bad experiences with LEO's, which could lead to, what is in my opinion, such a drastic view.

But, on the face of it, PALO was merely pointing out that sometimes the more pragmatic course of action would indeed be to have a conversation with an investigating LEO, the purpose of which would be to 'avoid the ride'.

Furthermore, he provided a couple of real world examples where such a conversation accomplished just that.

I suppose your mind is made up, and unchangable.
And I suppose what you say is true, "from a certain point of view".
And I suppose we will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Obi Wan
 
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OC for ME

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Messages
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Indeed.

And I thought asking if I were being detained was confrontational.
Depends on the LEO.

I am aware that text on a forum, even with emoticons, can be mis-interpreted, but PALO's point seems self evident to me.
You must first accept that his premise is valid in all circumstances.

Although my OP was pretty narrow in scope, referring to only the situation of being approached by LEO while OC and doing nothing illegal, others have taken it much further, and claimed that it is never prudent to speak to an LEO at all.
You may know for a certainty that you are legit but you can not know what the LEO has in his mind unless he tells you, which he has no obligation to do.

It would seem that you have had bad experiences with LEO's, which could lead to, what is in my opinion, such a drastic view.
School of hard knocks. It is only drastic if you had not experienced a "bad" encounter.

But, on the face of it, PALO was merely pointing out that sometimes the more pragmatic course of action would indeed be to have a conversation with an investigating LEO, the purpose of which would be to 'avoid the ride'.
Agreed. But to what extend do you cooperate to avoid the ride?

Furthermore, he provided a couple of real world examples where such a conversation accomplished just that.
He provided examples of what he would do/did. Also, one example was premised on the presumption of criminality based only on popular opinion, not what is observed as being lawful or unlawful. The coat hanger down the window example.

I suppose your mind is made up, and unchangable.
When the facts change, I change.

And I suppose what you say is true, "from a certain point of view".
Back atcha.

And I suppose we "will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view".
Would you accept my truth without first testing my premise?

Anyway. If there is no ill intent by a cop he should not get bent cuz you whipped out the "Why am I being detained?" card. The cop should know that OCers do get hassled by other cops, even a cop or two in his own department. But, gambling on getting a "good" cop every time is a fools bet. The odds are definitely in your favor but why take a chance when the "house" always wins.
 

Obi Wan

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Washington, Spokane
You must first accept that his premise is valid in all circumstances.

I believe PALO's premise is: it is sometimes ok to talk to LEO's.
I believe that premise, since it is essentially conditional, is valid.


Agreed. But to what extend do you cooperate to avoid the ride?

To the extent necessary?

When the facts change, I change.

Good! A reasonable approach.

Would you accept my truth without first testing my premise?

I don't quite understand what you mean. Can you give me an example?

The odds are definitely in your favor but why take a chance when the "house" always wins.

A very sobering thought.

Obi Wan
 
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