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Thread: Educating Police During Encounters

  1. #1
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    Educating Police During Encounters

    My only negative open carry experiences have been with concealed-carry fanboys and one theater manager. I have had nothing but positive dealings with law-enforcement professionals in my area.

    That being said, I see a lot of posts about OC-ers getting temporarily disarmed while being hassled by the police. Each time (that I have read), the officer has used something called "Officer Safety" to justify removing the handgun from the holster.

    Has anyone (or would anyone) educated law-enforcement professionals about actual safety during such encounters? A line might be:

    LEP: Hi there, I'm just going to take this while we're talking so I'm a bit more comfortable.
    OC: Actually, sir/ma'am, removing the weapon from its holster endangers everyone in the immediate area. As it stands now, there is no human interaction with the firearm and thus no chance of a negligent discharge. As soon as you come into contact with the weapon, the chance of a negligent discharge becomes greater than 0%. You may feel more safe with the firearm in your possession, but the reality is that everyone here is less safe.

    I'd love to get the feedback of both veteran OC-ers and actual law-enforcement professionals. Thank you all for your time.

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    Occifer safety has been upheld by SCOTUS in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Educating a professional is futile, you both get frustrated and the professional enjoys it.

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/392/1/case.html
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Barring me being stopped on suspicion of a weapons violation....

    Officer Friendly is quite welcome to hold on to my firearm as we chat for as long as it takes. I'm quite welcome to wait as long as it takes for him to realize that the 'conversation' isn't progressing one iota more until I'm once again in possession of all my papers and effects. As I see it, that leaves him with limited choices - -
    Officer Friendly can give me back my firearm and I'll skip my merrily on down the road, or
    Officer Friendly can give me back my firearm and we can have a conversation, or
    Officer Friendly can continue to hold on to my firearm and we'll see if my patience of his shift lasts longer.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Educating Police During Encounters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Occifer safety has been upheld by SCOTUS in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Educating a professional is futile, you both get frustrated and the professional enjoys it.

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/392/1/case.html
    Or the "professional" uses your logic as an indicator of resistance (now adays anything seems to be to them) and procedes to draw on you.... arguing is for the court room. Not with officer Jackboots. "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS NOW SWINE! "
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    I have used that line on LEO's . I have told them it is far safer right where it is, then if they were handling it. So far they have not taken it. I would not resist, but they would have to take it

    IMO, most LEO don't know a gun from a banana.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    My only negative open carry experiences have been with concealed-carry fanboys and one theater manager. I have had nothing but positive dealings with law-enforcement professionals in my area.

    That being said, I see a lot of posts about OC-ers getting temporarily disarmed while being hassled by the police. Each time (that I have read), the officer has used something called "Officer Safety" to justify removing the handgun from the holster.

    Has anyone (or would anyone) educated law-enforcement professionals about actual safety during such encounters? A line might be:

    LEP: Hi there, I'm just going to take this while we're talking so I'm a bit more comfortable.
    OC: Actually, sir/ma'am, removing the weapon from its holster endangers everyone in the immediate area. As it stands now, there is no human interaction with the firearm and thus no chance of a negligent discharge. As soon as you come into contact with the weapon, the chance of a negligent discharge becomes greater than 0%. You may feel more safe with the firearm in your possession, but the reality is that everyone here is less safe.

    I'd love to get the feedback of both veteran OC-ers and actual law-enforcement professionals. Thank you all for your time.
    Similarly, I have had nothing but positive encounters with LEO's while open carrying. I am in WA. My understanding is it seems like some states are a LOT worse than others, and cops in WA are pretty kewl with OCing, especially comparatively speaking.

    Imo, removing a OCers (or a CCWers) handgun while contacting them for "officer safety" concerns is a bunch of rubbish. If there is no articulable reason to think the specific person you are dealing with is a officer safety concern, then you have no right as far as I am concerned to remove somebody's handgun from their person. I am not saying OCers should RESIST. That would just bring trouble, but I think it is certainly something to complain about.

    You are exactly correct. The safest place for the handgun is in the holster. If the ofc. feels too afraid to deal with the OCer without disarming him, then he should eschew contacting the OCer at all. Just, in the words of Dionne Warwick... "walk on by"

    If the officer is arresting the OCer, then of course the firearm should be and will be removed, but with the average contact? Nope

    cheers

  7. #7
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    When I'm in contact with LEOs, I always try to be nice. Sometimes it's hard, but I try. Even to the point that I share info with them I really don't think is any of their business. Like Monday evening when my truck broke down along a state highway. I called my insurance company for roadside assistance (and they helped me a lot), and a couple county sheriff's deputies drove by looking for someone. same make and model of truck, different color and even gave the guy's name. I think they were BS'ing, but oh well. Being snotty and "do I have to answer that?" or "am I being detained" could have turned the situation really sour. Something I did not need at the time. Even then, I live here. Get to know the cops and deputies, they get to know me, build a positive relationship between us, and in the end all the better.

    IMO the best education an officer can get is by showing you're not a bad guy. Act like a gentleman, be polite, be respectful, and you'll have far more to gain with that.
    I have difficulty dealing with cops after living in Colorado for 7 years. I must have broke a mirror or something, because the cops had it out for me there. Here in Utah, they are very polite and respectful and they actually respect your Constitutional rights far more than any of the cops I met in Colorado (with a couple of exceptions of course).
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Terry has three basic components for a cop to temporarily seize your property without your consent. You must suspicious, you must be armed, and that cop must be able to articulate (later unfortunately) that you could have been dangerous. Cops, and the courts, have watered down Terry to a "see gun = danger" scenario.

    If you are accosted by a cop while OC, simply because you are OCing, there are not many things that you may do, resisting the cops acts is the thing you must never do. Speak little, get a lawyer, and seek a remedy via the courts. Cops are not your friends and are not in the business, any more, of maintaining the peace.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    Similarly, I have had nothing but positive encounters with LEO's while open carrying. I am in WA. My understanding is it seems like some states are a LOT worse than others, and cops in WA are pretty kewl with OCing, especially comparatively speaking.

    Imo, removing a OCers (or a CCWers) handgun while contacting them for "officer safety" concerns is a bunch of rubbish. If there is no articulable reason to think the specific person you are dealing with is a officer safety concern, then you have no right as far as I am concerned to remove somebody's handgun from their person. I am not saying OCers should RESIST. That would just bring trouble, but I think it is certainly something to complain about.

    You are exactly correct. The safest place for the handgun is in the holster. If the ofc. feels too afraid to deal with the OCer without disarming him, then he should eschew contacting the OCer at all. Just, in the words of Dionne Warwick... "walk on by"

    If the officer is arresting the OCer, then of course the firearm should be and will be removed, but with the average contact? Nope

    cheers
    State troopers and most deputies have been totally cool about the gun, in my experiences.
    City cops.....that is were most the instances of harassment I know of come from. But I have had good experiences and non eventfull encounters with them too, especially in my town, but that didn't stop many of them from bordering on harassment for over a year until the city settled, and I am pretty sure they all know who I am.

    Side note, your experience of OC may be different than OCers in that you are a cop, and cops will often treat their brothers in blue a lot different than us mundanes. Even in your area, and I can think of an example by someone I am 100% positive you know (it is not OC related).
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Twice now I have told an officer that, No, he will not be "securing my weapon" for any reason and that it's going to stay precisely where it belongs, in it's holster.

    If a LEO wants to ask a question, he's more than welcome to, but ******** get shown the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Occifer safety has been upheld by SCOTUS in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Educating a professional is futile, you both get frustrated and the professional enjoys it.

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/392/1/case.html
    If I wanted to be a teacher, I'd be at the university - not walking down the street legally carrying.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Occifer safety has been upheld by SCOTUS in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Educating a professional is futile, you both get frustrated and the professional enjoys it.

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/392/1/case.html
    Terry says you may be patted down for weapons that may harm the LEO...IF you are under suspicion of criminal activity!

    OC of a firearm (where it is legal, even if it requires a license like in OK) cannot, in and of itself, be suspicion of a crime, and therefore they CANNOT do a Terry stop for OC, and they CANNOT legally seize your person or your property. Check Delaware V Prouse. The ruling was....you cannot randomly stop a person to check for a license, just because he is doing a licensed activity.

    On top of that, OC does not even require a license in 29 states, so how can you randomly stop a person to check for a license that is NOT required.
    Last edited by hermannr; 08-17-2013 at 11:20 PM.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Terry has three basic components for a cop to temporarily seize your property without your consent. You must suspicious, you must be armed, and that cop must be able to articulate (later unfortunately) that you could have been dangerous. Cops, and the courts, have watered down Terry to a "see gun = danger" scenario.

    If you are accosted by a cop while OC, simply because you are OCing, there are not many things that you may do, resisting the cops acts is the thing you must never do. Speak little, get a lawyer, and seek a remedy via the courts. Cops are not your friends and are not in the business, any more, of maintaining the peace.
    The remedy is you sue the grabber, and you also try (usually can't get it done, but you can try) to get the grabber for "theft of a firearm". Maybe if your 42 USC 1983 suit yields enough funds the offending officer (based on that and his previous record) may be asked to "resign". I've seen that happen.
    Last edited by hermannr; 08-17-2013 at 11:26 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Barring me being stopped on suspicion of a weapons violation....

    Officer Friendly is quite welcome to hold on to my firearm as we chat for as long as it takes. I'm quite welcome to wait as long as it takes for him to realize that the 'conversation' isn't progressing one iota more until I'm once again in possession of all my papers and effects. As I see it, that leaves him with limited choices - -
    Officer Friendly can give me back my firearm and I'll skip my merrily on down the road, or
    Officer Friendly can give me back my firearm and we can have a conversation, or
    Officer Friendly can continue to hold on to my firearm and we'll see if my patience of his shift lasts longer.
    Barring RAS of other criminal activity, in Oklahoma a law enforcement officer cannot disarm or physically restrain an open carrier unless the person refuses to show his or her handgun license.

    http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA...k_NOV_2012.pdf
    TITLE 21 § 1290.8 POSSESSION OF LICENSE REQUIRED-NOTIFICATION TO POLICE OF GUN

    B. The person shall be required to have possession of his or her valid handgun license and a valid Oklahoma driver license or an Oklahoma State photo identification at all times when in possession of an authorized pistol. The person shall display the handgun license on demand of a law enforcement officer; provided, however, that in the absence of reasonable and articulable suspicion of other criminal activity, an individual carrying an unconcealed handgun shall not be disarmed or physically restrained unless the individual fails to display a valid handgun license in response to that demand.


    So, unless Officer Friendly thinks I just knocked over a liquor store/convenience store/fast food restaurant/bank or committed a shooting then continued down the street with my holstered sidearm, I'll happily show him my ID/handgun license while my handgun remains in it's holster, and we can talk.

    ECS
    Last edited by Elm Creek Smith; 08-19-2013 at 01:03 PM.
    "If the truth hurts, it should." - Dad

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    First, let me say that I've never had a negative encounter with police while OCing - and that includes doing so in Missouri, where there is no state pre-emption and OC is almost unheard of.

    If an officer asks or orders me to disarm, my reply will be "No thanks, I'll just be on my way". At that point, if he insist, I'll tell him that I'd rather not unholster my firearm, and that I'll remove it holster and all from my belt instead.

    Once the encounter is over, I'll be on the phone setting up an appointment with his agency's chief LEO to talk about how his officer unlawfully detained and disarmed me.

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elm Creek Smith View Post
    <snip> So, unless Officer Friendly thinks I just knocked over a liquor store/convenience store/fast food restaurant/bank or committed a shooting then continued down the street with my holstered sidearm, I'll happily show him my ID/handgun license while my handgun remains in it's holster, and we can talk. <snip>
    Officer Friendly claims that a white guy with a gun was last seen.....

    Do not physically resist. Use the system, as broken as it seems to be. The last thing the "movement" needs is OCers being recorded resisting a unlawful detention. because resisting a unlawful detention looks just like resisting a lawful detention on the evening news.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Officer Friendly claims that a white guy with a gun was last seen.....
    There better be a better description than that.

    Do not physically resist. Use the system, as broken as it seems to be. The last thing the "movement" needs is OCers being recorded resisting a unlawful detention. because resisting a unlawful detention looks just like resisting a lawful detention on the evening news.
    Oh, I wouldn't physically resist. I'll just video the whole thing on my little clip-on camera. Then we can talk with the chief and the lawyers!

    ECS
    "If the truth hurts, it should." - Dad

    " A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity

    "The cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter." - Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elm Creek Smith View Post
    There better be a better description than that.

    Oh, I wouldn't physically resist. I'll just video the whole thing on my little clip-on camera. Then we can talk with the chief and the lawyers!

    ECS
    How many white guys with guns are there in your jurisdiction? Unless OCers are the norm, I'll wager that that will be enough to initiate a stop. Remember Aurora CO where "a bank robber is around here somewhere" was good enough.

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