Tackett
Regular Member
Amen.
If I was in office no one and I mean no one, would dare attack America.
It would take only one engagement and they would all be like.... Retreat! That dudes crazy.
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The Hiroshima Myth
- Thread starter 77zach
- Start date
Amen.
If I was in office no one and I mean no one, would dare attack America.
It would take only one engagement and they would all be like.... Retreat! That dudes crazy.
77zach
Regular Member
Another person who didn't read the article or is too dishonest to rebut it. This is funny. If only millions didn't have to die because of false bravado and ignorance like yours. As eye would say, moving on.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
People should learn all of history, Japan did not just flip a coin and decide to attack us. There were factors involved that the US gov was responsible for. Our gov decided to use Japan as a testing ground for the bombs, that is it, it had nothing to do with surrender. In all probability the bombs were probably rushed to get them off before Japan could surrender.
We killed hundreds of thousands of innocents for ONE reason, to test a bomb. It was terrorism no matter what excuses we make for it today. This is not the first time we used terrorism and not the last. Obama today continues to kill innocents intentionally, making our country no better than the people we claim to be ridding the world of.
We killed hundreds of thousands of innocents for ONE reason, to test a bomb. It was terrorism no matter what excuses we make for it today. This is not the first time we used terrorism and not the last. Obama today continues to kill innocents intentionally, making our country no better than the people we claim to be ridding the world of.
eye95
Well-known member
Yes.
Just because my take differs from yours and the author of this less-than-scholarly article does not warrant implying that I did not.
I tire of that dishonest tactic that is too often used here--so moving on. My opinion is out there.
Once again, I don't care one whit if it changes your mind. I am writing this so that others with open minds can get influence from both sides of the issue, confident that most rational folks will recognize the appropriateness of using the tools at our disposal to end a war that killed millions and one in which we were the aggrieved party.
On edit: I notice that the only rebuttal you have is to imply that folks who disagree did not read the article. That is despicable.
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sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Bingo!
There is evidence to verify this too, like FDR administration (following in the steps of Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, and Wilson) out right plan to get Japan to fire first, and it wasn't even their goal to war with Japan it was an excuse to enter into the war in Europe.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Not true, if the government account of the first detonation at the Trinity Site is to be believed.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Well, there's "testing" and then there's "testing", if you get my drift...
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Detonation at a test site, and detonation over a population is not the same. They wanted to drop these bombs no matter the circumstances. They wanted to see the level of destruction and killing, and they wanted the horror value to be THE super power. Vietnam was a testing ground for weapons platforms, same as the war on terror.
eye95
Well-known member
Do I detect the presence of katdung?
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77zach
Regular Member
I didn't read your first response carefully enough. It's not completely relevant, but Japan was provoked into war and us.gov knew an attack was coming. You implied Japan attacked out of the blue. Some in us.gov orgasmed when Pearl Harbor was hit. Maybe you need to educate yourself a little better before quickly coming to conclusions on topics that you may have deficient knowledge of. Particularly whe hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake. Moving on....
MyGlockisaRedneck0
Regular Member
Revisionist History
So, if some of y'all are to be believed, FDR pushed Japan, by witholding gasoline and steel, into a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour while Jap emissaries were in DC talking peace just so FDR would have an "excuse" to go to war with the Nazis in Europe?
Yeah, sure he did. :dude:
OK, how about youse guys who believe that claptrap giving this line of thinking a go----(1) FDR wanted to help Churchill fight the Nazis so FDR broke all the laws he could to GIVE him as much war material (Lend/Lease) as he could such as the famous 50 old WWI era destroyers; (2)having US planes and ships escorting convoys part of the way out into the Atlantic to ease the burden on the British navy, and OBTW, (3)lets stop all gas and metal exports to the Japs so they HAVE to bomb us to get us out of the way in the Pacific so that they can take all they want from that area.
Yeah, sure he did.:dude:
Oh wait! Just like all conspiracy theories, there ARE indeed some elements in all of this that can be twisted into a theory that FDR manipulated situations to get the USA into WWII so that his failed economic policies could be rescued by a booming war industry running 24 hours a day seven days a week employing everybody and their mother as well as taking notice away from what the fed gubmet was actually doing in all areas of American life, including civil liberties, by confiscating the west coast Jap-Americans' property and moving them to "camps" in Montana.
I could go on but I tire of all this "revisionist" conspiracy stuff!:banghead:
In conclusion, what do y'all think of the gubment putting flouride in the public drinking water?:monkey
So, if some of y'all are to be believed, FDR pushed Japan, by witholding gasoline and steel, into a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour while Jap emissaries were in DC talking peace just so FDR would have an "excuse" to go to war with the Nazis in Europe?
Yeah, sure he did. :dude:
OK, how about youse guys who believe that claptrap giving this line of thinking a go----(1) FDR wanted to help Churchill fight the Nazis so FDR broke all the laws he could to GIVE him as much war material (Lend/Lease) as he could such as the famous 50 old WWI era destroyers; (2)having US planes and ships escorting convoys part of the way out into the Atlantic to ease the burden on the British navy, and OBTW, (3)lets stop all gas and metal exports to the Japs so they HAVE to bomb us to get us out of the way in the Pacific so that they can take all they want from that area.
Yeah, sure he did.:dude:
Oh wait! Just like all conspiracy theories, there ARE indeed some elements in all of this that can be twisted into a theory that FDR manipulated situations to get the USA into WWII so that his failed economic policies could be rescued by a booming war industry running 24 hours a day seven days a week employing everybody and their mother as well as taking notice away from what the fed gubmet was actually doing in all areas of American life, including civil liberties, by confiscating the west coast Jap-Americans' property and moving them to "camps" in Montana.
I could go on but I tire of all this "revisionist" conspiracy stuff!:banghead:
In conclusion, what do y'all think of the gubment putting flouride in the public drinking water?:monkey
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
It's not a wild conspiracy theory. War is the state. It's also highly profitable. The result is that there are factions always clamoring for war.
77zach
Regular Member
HAHAAH! You and eye can read high school history books together (in red white and blue underwear). Mine was called "Nation of Nations", you can only imagine the propaganda with a title like that. Pathetic.
eye95
Well-known member
Notice how some can only ridicule, rather that participate in adult discussion.
Rational folks don't lend them any credibility when such is their primary rhetorical technique.
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Rational folks don't lend them any credibility when such is their primary rhetorical technique.
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77zach
Regular Member
How can we even begin to have a discussion when you identify the men, women, and children burned to death by the atom bombs with a few Japanese elites, which elites sued for conditional peace, which conditions the American elites were fine with, giving them even more than they asked for in said conditional peace? Am I responsible for the million murdered Iraqis or Vietnamese because I'm an American? I don't identify with a government, most people do. It's horrific, but that's the world we live in. The article was just an insignificant, tiny effort to rebut the patriotic smut I was watching on Fox News.
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BB62
Accomplished Advocate
Yeah, right.
I note that the "article" conveniently leaves out mention that even AFTER both bombs were dropped, the highest ranking military officers STILL didn't want to surrender, and it was only the emperor's insistence that made it happen.
There were many reasons the bombs were dropped, including a desire to impress Russia with our "strength", but also including a desire not to have millions more casualties from an invasion of Japan proper. No doubt there were others, but because there were multiple reasons doesn't make the generally offered rationale a "myth".
btw, I've personally talked to men, some of whom were en-route to staging areas to invade Japan, and some of whom took part in dropping leaflets on Japan warning of the upcoming use of a weapon like had never been seen before.
OC for ME
Regular Member
There were two bombs dropped on Japan, a U235 bomb and a plutonium bomb. The U235 bomb, or more aptly the U235 bomb design did not require testing, Oppenheimer and Fermi et al knew that design would work. The plutonium bomb design required testing to be sure the HE initiator design would compress the plutonium.
The other "test" regarding the bombs intended emotional/political impact was known given the affects of the Dresden raids. Though, it took almost 2000 bombers, three days, and nearly 4000 tons of HE and incendiary bombs. It is generally accepted that the Dresden raid was targeted solely at the civilian population vs. the official reason of disrupting communications and transport facilities. Most of the military targets were on the outer edges of Dresden but Mosquito bombers marked the city center. Even Churchill lightly condemned, then later walked back his "condemnations", the Dresden raid. Different "bombs" same desired result ultimately.
What we did as a nation is what it is, we have not done "that" again. We now choose to hire surrogates to inflict prolonged low levels of misery while attempting to keep our hands as free of innocent blood as possible. The American people are fine with this for the time being. The reason, whatever you may think it is, for using those devices on Japan are moot at this point in our history.
The other "test" regarding the bombs intended emotional/political impact was known given the affects of the Dresden raids. Though, it took almost 2000 bombers, three days, and nearly 4000 tons of HE and incendiary bombs. It is generally accepted that the Dresden raid was targeted solely at the civilian population vs. the official reason of disrupting communications and transport facilities. Most of the military targets were on the outer edges of Dresden but Mosquito bombers marked the city center. Even Churchill lightly condemned, then later walked back his "condemnations", the Dresden raid. Different "bombs" same desired result ultimately.
What we did as a nation is what it is, we have not done "that" again. We now choose to hire surrogates to inflict prolonged low levels of misery while attempting to keep our hands as free of innocent blood as possible. The American people are fine with this for the time being. The reason, whatever you may think it is, for using those devices on Japan are moot at this point in our history.
77zach
Regular Member
I disagree. The article wasn't meant to be controversial. Japan was toast. Everyone knew it (who was in the know) before the bombs were dropped. Just as those in the know knew Hitler was toast once the decision was made to attack Russia.
The reason I disagree is that if people learn to slaughter the sacred propaganda cows of the past, they may take a more critical eye to the present. If people understood that their beloved government was a lying murderer then, maybe they would have not gone along with the murder of a million Iraqis after "nineleaven". When Bush made his mushroom cloud speech in 2002, maybe there would have been too few neocons to embrace the lie. The regime still needs a good deal of support in the "homeland" to commit its crimes.
Next up is Persia or maybe even Russia or China, and our freedom and standard of living will NOT survive that war. Maybe, just maybe, if enough people know about the lies of the civil war, phillipino genocide, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Iraq 1&2, we can prevent the involvement in the next one.
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Wow.... First off, lets not forget about all the Japaneses women jumping off cliffs with their children in their arms. (sorry that one bothers me) Second off, yes I read the article. Do some research on what Japan did to China and every other island, country, and foe they invaded. I bet everyone here (if they served in WW2), would of been in favor of the new bomb to end the war than taken their chances on the inevitable invasion. Can you imagine going through the hell of Iwo Jima, then being ordered to invade the main land? Iwo Jima took 36 days to invade, that little waste land of a tunneled out island. How long would the main land of took, with everyone believing that we were evil, and out to steal, rape, and kill?
77zach
Regular Member
See, some of you are saying that, but then the rest of your response doesn't make sense if that were true. If you said, "I don't believe the Japanese told the American diplomats they would surrender if they could retain the Emperor", then that would make sense. That the Japanese were brutal is absolutely irrelevant. Read what the US.gov did in Atlanta, in the war between the state, to the native americans, and the attempted genocide of the Filipinos. Irrelevant.