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Thread: Update on my Amelia County CHP renewal.

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    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Update on my Amelia County CHP renewal.

    Okay, I decided to be a nice guy and give the court what they requested for my renewal, that is a copy of my current permit and a self addressed stamped envelope. They returned my application(in my self addressed envelope) for the following reasons:

    1 I forgot to list eye color (okay so I'm dumb for that one)

    2 My height as listed on my old permit is 5'10". My current height, as measured at my cancer treatment center is barely over 5"9" now and I gave my current height, not what I was 5 to 10 years ago.

    3 They sent an additional background check form for for the sheriff's dept.

    I will try and attach a copy of this form. Although, I am not sure what I can do about these extra legal requirements as I am on a fixed income and can't afford a`` lawyer to fight them in court. Dis-reguard the file name "chemo appt.. That is the folder that my scan saved it to.
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    Last edited by celticredneck; 08-08-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I can see the veins in PVC's forehead bulging right now.

    I don't even know where to start... but I would be sure not to leave out asking them if they are suggesting you commit perjury by lying about your current height.

    TFred

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    Boy, would I be tempted to point out that people get shorter as they age, and that the height was measured at the cancer treatment center as of (date). And, then add the perjury comment made just earlier.

    Let them make this difficult for a person they know is a cancer patient, and watch PVC make hay with that one.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    And again, not to mention that you should thank them for handing you an extra-legal application on a piece of paper, hard physical evidence of breaking the law...

    TFred

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    Is Marilyn Wilson the current Clerk?

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/courts...elia/home.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Is Marilyn Wilson the current Clerk?

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/courts...elia/home.html

    Apparently issuing CHP's is only one of the "highly complex and challenging" tasks that she performs.

    http://www.ameliacova.com/bio/view/10/

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    We REALLY need to push for constitutional carry and do away with 18.2-308 entirely. Amelia, Petersburg, Accomack, Fairfax, Newport News, Norfolk, etc. etc. all imposing extra legal requirements. When is enough enough?

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    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Is Marilyn Wilson the current Clerk?

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/courts...elia/home.html

    Yes, she is the current clerk and also the one I spoke with when I made my original phone call to inquire if their renewal fee was still the same.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    Yes, she is the current clerk and also the one I spoke with when I made my original phone call to inquire if their renewal fee was still the same.
    I think I would send it back to them with a copy of 18.2-308.02... highlighting the portion indicated below:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...od+18.2-308.02

    The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    We REALLY need to push for constitutional carry and do away with 18.2-308 entirely. Amelia, Petersburg, Accomack, Fairfax, Newport News, Norfolk, etc. etc. all imposing extra legal requirements. When is enough enough?
    Yup.

    It would also be good to have penalties for elected officials who do not adhere to the Code of Virginia. If Joe Citizen violates the Code they can be cited and/or arrested.... with monetary and/or jail penalties. if a Court Clerk violates the Code, it seems that the very worst that will happen is they get a slap on the wrist and told 'don't do that again'. (and even getting to that point is a long tedious process....)
    Last edited by Blk97F150; 08-09-2013 at 07:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blk97f150 View Post
    yup.

    It would also be good to have penalties for elected officials who do not adhere to the code of virginia. If joe citizen violates the code they can be cited and/or arrested.... With monetary and/or jail penalties. If a court clerk violates the code, it seems that the very worst that will happen is they get a slap on the wrist and told 'don't do that again'. (and even getting to that point is a long tedious, EXPENSIVE process....)
    ftfy

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    Would it be worthwhile to contact the County Attorney directly? Maybe best to wait until after responding to the Clerk and getting her answer?

    County Attorney:

    http://www.ameliacova.com/department/view/25/

    http://www.heftywiley.com/

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I heard there may be a visit by some people on the agenda. Just a rumor.

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    So I email the clerk to ask what is required to renew. Here is her response.


    To renew concealed handgun permit for Amelia County, you would have to bring in proof of haven taken a safety course or we can copy your current permit. You can download an application from the State website or pick up one from the Clerk's Office. You would need to be sworn and your signature notarized. Make sure you bring a picture ID. Cost $15.00.

    Marilyn Wilson, Clerk
    Amelia County Circuit Court
    (804) 561-2128

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    We REALLY need to push for constitutional carry and do away with 18.2-308 entirely. Amelia, Petersburg, Accomack, Fairfax, Newport News, Norfolk, etc. etc. all imposing extra legal requirements. When is enough enough?
    +1, rights don't require permission slips.
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    Man she's not getting it either.

    Mr. McNeill,

    I think you should re-read my reply to you. My reply says "you would have to bring in proof of safety course or your current permit", which either will prove competency.
    The picture ID is for the purpose of notarizing your signature. If you have your signature notarized prior to turning in the application (which most applicants do not),then we will not need your photo ID.
    I thank you for the advice, but I assure you that my policies are in line with the Code of Virginia.

    Marilyn Wilson, Clerk
    Amelia Circuit Court


    -----Michael McNeill <mmcneill1313@gmail.com> wrote: -----
    To: mwilson@courts.state.va.us
    From: Michael McNeill <mmcneill1313@gmail.com>
    Date: 08/09/2013 10:43AM
    Cc: Philip Van Cleave <president@vcdl.org>
    Subject: Re: Concealed Handgun Permit renewal



    I think you need to re-consider your requirements. State law provides that no proof of competence be required for renewal, only for initial permit application, this is stated on the application itself. Proof of competence does not expire.


    Requiring a copy of the current permit and/or photo ID are both illegal under VA 18.2-308.02, Clerks cannot require anything beyond what the statute specifically authorizes. Unless you can point to the code the authorizes these requirements, I think it would be in your best interest to bring your policies in-line with State Law.


    I would ask that you consult the County Attorney if you need further clarification on the state codes.



    Michael J. McNeill

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Man she's not getting it either.

    I think you should re-read my reply to you. My reply says "you would have to bring in proof of safety course or your current permit", which either will prove competency.
    The picture ID is for the purpose of notarizing your signature. If you have your signature notarized prior to turning in the application (which most applicants do not),then we will not need your photo ID.
    I thank you for the advice, but I assure you that my policies are in line with the Code of Virginia.

    Marilyn Wilson, Clerk
    Amelia Circuit Court


    -----Michael McNeill <mmcneill1313@gmail.com> wrote: -----
    To: mwilson@courts.state.va.us
    From: Michael McNeill <mmcneill1313@gmail.com>
    Date: 08/09/2013 10:43AM
    Cc: Philip Van Cleave <president@vcdl.org>
    Subject: Re: Concealed Handgun Permit renewal



    I think you need to re-consider your requirements. State law provides that no proof of competence be required for renewal, only for initial permit application, this is stated on the application itself. Proof of competence does not expire.


    Requiring a copy of the current permit and/or photo ID are both illegal under VA 18.2-308.02, Clerks cannot require anything beyond what the statute specifically authorizes. Unless you can point to the code the authorizes these requirements, I think it would be in your best interest to bring your policies in-line with State Law.


    I would ask that you consult the County Attorney if you need further clarification on the state codes.
    I see a couple of things wrong with this dialogue.

    First, she says "bring in" as opposed to "submit", thereby ignoring the mail in option of renewals.

    Second, your assertion that she is requiring a photo ID for purposes of renewal; she's not. She's only requiring it for notarizing your application, as any notary would. No one here seems to have any problem separating an independent notary's requirement for a photo Id from the renewal process. If you showed up at the Clerk's office with your un-notarized application and no photo ID and she (rightly) refused it, you'd really be steamed, perhaps because "No one told me I needed an ID...". Perhaps she could have worded her requirements better, as in "We'll be happy to notarize your application for you, but you'll need to bring a photo ID...".

    Third, instead of debating her about her extra-legal requirements, simply mail in your notarized application, with the "renewal" box checked along with a check. Then if she declines to process it, you'll be able to make complaints about her failure to follow the law.

    BTW, I didn't encounter any extralegal issues when I renewed my CHP in Newport News.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Re: Update on my Amelia County CHP renewal.

    It was Portsmouth that someone on facebook had mentioned, my mistake.

    The renewal application is going to be submitted with only those items required by law, Celticredneck is my father. I had initially emailed the clerk in hopes of her being reasonable and realizing her error. No such luck.

    You are correct about the ID for notary, but she does assert that you must show proof of competency for renewal, which is illegal.

    Sent from my XT912 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited by builtjeep; 08-09-2013 at 12:10 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    It was Portsmouth that someone on facebook had mentioned, my mistake.

    The renewal application is going to be submitted with only those items required by law, Celticredneck is my father. I had initially emailed the clerk in hopes of her being reasonable and realizing her error. No such luck.

    You are correct about the ID for notary, but she does assert that you must show proof of competency for renewal, which is illegal.

    Sent from my XT912 using Tapatalk 2
    There are those that state that "proof of competence" must be satisfied even on renewal permits - think that Mike Stollenwerk was one such - I have come to agree myself.

    Now before the flames begin - How will the clerk know whether this requirement has been satisfied? Sure you wrote down the number of your expiring CHP - and how will the clerk confirm the validity of that?

    Solution is found in section G-6 of 18.2-308.

    • G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:
    • 6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof...
    • http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...1+ful+CHAP0559

    Note you are not submitting "to any additional demonstration of competence" - you are only demonstrating that this was fulfilled by having a previously issued CHP. So when the Clerk asks for a photocopy of your CHP, he/she is only fulfilling an obligation to insure that your original certification was in fact seen somewhere. The previous issuance of a CHP is evidence of that.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-09-2013 at 01:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The previous issuance of a CHP is evidence of that.
    Which is a matter of court record.

    User stated as much in my thread.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1919117

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Which is a matter of court record.

    User stated as much in my thread.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1919117
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    The previous issuance of a CHP is evidence of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Which is a matter of court record.

    User stated as much in my thread.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1919117
    My respect for Dan Hawes is well known - I think the wording/verbiage used is most important so I am not in disagreement with him. No additional proof of competancy is being required - only a demonstration that it was done initially.

    If an applicant (renewal) had a permit issued by the Newport News Clerk and were now applying in Chesterfield County, then the Chesterfield Clerk does not have access to the NN files and to my knowledge the VSP does not have any records as to your competancy. I believe the recent Code revisions were intended to clarify some of these issues - think that G -6 is just one such an item.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are those that state that "proof of competence" must be satisfied even on renewal permits - think that Mike Stollenwerk was one such - I have come to agree myself.

    Now before the flames begin - How will the clerk know whether this requirement has been satisfied? Sure you wrote down the number of your expiring CHP - and how will the clerk confirm the validity of that?

    Solution is found in section G-6 of 18.2-308.

    • G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:
    • 6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof...
    • http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...1+ful+CHAP0559

    Note you are not submitting "to any additional demonstration of competence" - you are only demonstrating that this was fulfilled by having a previously issued CHP. So when the Clerk asks for a photocopy of your CHP, he/she is only fulfilling an obligation to insure that your original certification was in fact seen somewhere. The previous issuance of a CHP is evidence of that.
    So the question seems to be, who is responsible for getting the proof in front of the clerk?

    One might consider whether or not such proof is correctly classified as a "part of the application".

    I suspect if a clerk called the VSP, they would probably be willing to confirm the existence of the current CHP. But is that the clerk's responsibility?

    TFred

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    This is exactly the same BS I went through with Frederick County, took it as far as the judge and he refused to issue my permit unless I submitted proof of competency again! I even brought in the application with initial permit highlighted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyras21 View Post
    This is exactly the same BS I went through with Frederick County, took it as far as the judge and he refused to issue my permit unless I submitted proof of competency again! I even brought in the application with initial permit highlighted.
    So another issue that needs to be either fixed, or used in support of Constitutional Carry.

    I have to side with Mr. Hawes on this issue. I cannot believe that one clerk cannot verify the permit that was issued by another court. They can damned sure find any citation or warrant issued, they can find any other case number, what makes these case records different?

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