OC in Car Wthout CCW Permit

cirrusly · Aug 12, 2013

E6chevron said:
This discussion and explanation is appropriate to the Wisconsin forum. Links to Wisconsin Department of Justice documents, as well as Wisconsin forum Open and Concealed Carry guides are there.

The Wisconsin "Castle Doctrine" law does not affect the legality of Open Carry in a vehicle.

The definition of what is "Open Carry" in a vehicle in Wisconsin, is what is not clear. What many people would normally call open carry, may be considered concealed in a vehicle, in Wisconsin.

The story regarding Pulaski Wisconsin was from 2010, long before our "Handgun Carry" law was changed, including new limits on what can be considered Disorderly Conduct, when carrying a handgun.

cirrusly said:
Interesting. It was my understanding the Castle Doctrine was the catalyst for the legality changes around vehicle carry. After further review it looks like Castle Doctrine adopted civil and criminal immunity for certain self-defense encounters, Wis.Stats. 895.62, and Wis. Sec. 939.48, respectively. I (wrongly) assumed that it had something to do with extending a person's "abode" to their vehicles for the specific purpose of open carry.

Whereas WI statues relating to vehicle carry is:
Wis. Stats. § 167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and bows:
(b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess, or transport a firearm, bow, or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless one of the following applies: 1. The firearm is unloaded or is a handgun.

I'm guessing given the lack of clarity around "open carry" in vehicles (for state of WI) is because there is no definition such as "clearly visible" within the statues specifically relating to persons in vehicles? I'm just curious at this point. It's a moot point for me, as I now finally applied for my Utah CCW and live in VA. So I'm not frequenting WI as much as I'd like.

In a thread on a different thread I inquired about "open carry" in a vehicle (quoted above). I have heard conflicting information regarding the legalities of: OC in vehicle without a permit. Specifically:

I called the Wisconsin State Patrol and spoke with a Sargent whom was very polite and informative. He when he was answering my question about open carry on the Bearskin trail he had also remarked the laws "been changing a lot on us" and that open carry in a vehicle is legal, but not if the gun is concealed.

In another positive conversation between my mom and a local PD in Wisconsin she was initially told OC in a vehicle is not legal. But I encouraged her to have a follow-up conversation and cited the Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(b) The local detective admitted, yes, this would permit open carry in a vehicle without a permit. He recalled it may have become legal with the adoption of the Castle Doctrine. I also believed the OC without a permit was due to the Castle Doctine, something about extending a person's "abode" to their vehicles.

So my question being: Why the confusion around the legality of OC without a CCW in a vehicle? Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(b) seems pretty straightforward to me. Yet, even on this website for WI it states "You may NOT open carry in a car."

cirrusly · Aug 12, 2013

I'll kick this thread one more tim. It looks like the Wisconsin page does state some case law...

In Wisconsin, a gun in plan sight inside a vehicle is both in violation of the encased requirement, Section 167.31, and considered unlawfully concealed.
State v. Walls, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Wis. App. 1994) (A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section). See also State v. Keith, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993) (To .go armed. does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant.s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon.s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden).An encased gun is unlawfully concealed in a vehicle if the case is not “out of reach,” arguably wingspan plus lunge distance.
...
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=316

So we're talking about two statues here:

First, Wisconsin Stat. § 167.31, as the page refers to the "encased requirement." I'm not seeing an "encased" requirement for handguns in a car. All I see is the exception that allows "a handgun to be possessed or transported in or on a vehicle." Thus, I do not see validity in the "encased requirement" for handguns. Secondly, the Wisconsin Stat. § 941.23 referring to "concealment." Now, if the situation of "A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view" per case law, a handgun on a seat could be interpreted as "concealed."

So it's a matter of interpretation of "what is concealed." And if it's only a matter of interpretation of "concealment" then OC with a WI recognized CCW would be perfectly legal, and OC without a permit would be gray water.

That page is referencing old case laws, there has to be something more recent. Thoughts?...

pkbites · Aug 13, 2013

I've been in law enforcement for 31+ years and I do not recommend asking for information regarding the law from any cop.

With that said I can attest that at both of the 2 of the training conferences I attended regarding Act 35 we were told that open carry in a vehicle without a permit was legal. We were then shown scenarios as to what vehicle open carry was and was not. This was by no less than the Wisconsin Assistant Attorney General Dave Perlman.

But this, of course, is not the same as a court ruling or a statute codifying vehicle open carry.

At one time a video of one of these conferences was available on WILENET. It has since been taken off and I cannot find it on the web.

MKEgal · Aug 13, 2013

cirrusly said:
detective admitted, yes, this would permit open carry in a vehicle without a permit. He recalled it may have become legal with the adoption of the Castle Doctrine. I also believed the OC without a permit was due to the Castle Doctine, something about extending a person's "abode" to their vehicles.

The confusion only exists in the minds of some DAs & LEO.
The statute clearly says that loaded unencased pistols are legal in / on vehicles.

There's a sticky in the WI forum which contains references to many WI laws:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...rrying-(OC)-In-WI-Here-s-what-you-should-know

cirrusly said:
941.23 referring to "concealment."
Now, if the situation of "A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view" per case law, a handgun on a seat could be interpreted as "concealed."

So it's a matter of interpretation of "what is concealed."
And if it's only a matter of interpretation of "concealment" then OC with a WI recognized CCW would be perfectly legal, and OC without a permit would be gray water.

OC is legal nearly everywhere without a license. The only places it's needed are a school zone or taxpayer-owned building.
The problem comes when some DA or LEO tries to interpret "discernable to ordinary observation" to mean "visible from anywhere outside the car".
IMO, "ordinary observation" does not mean that the officer standing behind the left shoulder of the driver is able to see the pistol on her right hip - that would mean being able to see through everything comprising the seat as well as the driver. That's not ordinary observation.
Ordinary observation means that someone standing where he can see through the window to the person's belt is able to see the pistol because there's only a window in the way.
What makes that old court ruling even more absurd is that if there's a pistol sitting on the passenger seat, and next to it is a bag of marijuana, the officer will claim that the dope was in plain sight but the pistol isn't.

That page is referencing old case laws, there has to be something more recent.

No, there's nothing more recent.
No DA has been dumb enough to try a case where the person was OC in a car & try to use the old standards with our new laws. (In my case, the cops lied & said I was cc when I was really OC... otherwise they couldn't have seen it.)

RR_Broccoli · Aug 15, 2013

pkbites said:
I've been in law enforcement for 31+ years and I do not recommend asking for information regarding the law from any cop.

With that said I can attest that at both of the 2 of the training conferences I attended regarding Act 35 we were told that open carry in a vehicle without a permit was legal. We were then shown scenarios as to what vehicle open carry was and was not. This was by no less than the Wisconsin Assistant Attorney General Dave Perlman.

But this, of course, is not the same as a court ruling or a statute codifying vehicle open carry.

At one time a video of one of these conferences was available on WILENET. It has since been taken off and I cannot find it on the web.

Even a brief summary of what was said about it would help. That is, after all, the OP's question.

Law abider · Aug 15, 2013

pkbites said:
I've been in law enforcement for 31+ years and I do not recommend asking for information regarding the law from any cop.

We were then shown scenarios as to what vehicle open carry was and was not.

What were the scenarios?

pkbites · Aug 15, 2013

Law abider said:
What were the scenarios?

It's an absolute conglomeration of waste material. Listening to them describe where one could OC in a car w/o a permit was like listening to Steve Martin in The Jerk.

It has to be identifiable to anyone outside the immediate area of the car. But that can be tricky. First, it has to be above the door handle. So that means it has to be at least waist high. But wait....! If you're carrying on your left hip nobody would be able to see it from any angle. If carrying on your right hip someone on the left side of the car wouldn't be able to see it.

So the best areas are on the center console, or on the dash (yeah, no soccer moms are going to call the police after you drive past them with a gun on your dash

)

So the center console it is as long as one can clearly and immediately see it upon approaching that area of your car.

What a bunch of hooey. This state desperately needs to go to constitutional carry. Or at very least ones vehicle needs to be a domain extension and no permit for CCW in it needed.

Law abider · Aug 15, 2013

What a bunch of hooey. This state desperately needs to go to constitutional carry. Or at very least ones vehicle needs to be a domain extension and no permit for CCW in it needed.[/QUOTE]
You are spot on constitutional carry. My leo Sergent buddy will agree with you. I say to the op. Just get a CCL. Why subject yourself to the MPD syndrome?

HandyHamlet · Aug 15, 2013

pkbites said:
What a bunch of hooey. This state desperately needs to go to constitutional carry.

Uh, we HAD Constitutional Carry. Pam Galloway's bill WAS Constitutional Carry. "I'll sign anything that crosses my desk" Walker pleaded for mandatory training on TV the Sunday before the vote. Some of us don't forget.

NoTolerance · Aug 15, 2013

HandyHamlet said:
Uh, we HAD Constitutional Carry. Pam Galloway's bill WAS Constitutional Carry. "I'll sign anything that crosses my desk" Walker pleaded for mandatory training on TV the Sunday before the vote. Some of us don't forget.

Any relation to "I'll repeal the smoking ban" Walker? Or to "If it doesn't have anything to do with making me look like the Job Creation Master of the Universe I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and going la-la-la until you go away" Walker?

cirrusly · Aug 15, 2013

NoTolerance said:
Any relation to "I'll repeal the smoking ban" Walker? Or to "If it doesn't have anything to do with making me look like the Job Creation Master of the Universe I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and going la-la-la until you go away" Walker?

Scott Walker shot down constitutional carry? Really?! My parents are Walker backers and very pro 2A. I'm surprised.

NoTolerance · Aug 15, 2013

cirrusly said:
Scott Walker shot down constitutional carry? Really?! My parents are Walker backers and very pro 2A. I'm surprised.

The Scott Walker that ran for governor is a far cry from Governor Scott Walker, in my humblest of opinions.

HandyHamlet · Aug 15, 2013

Madison - Momentum shifted away from a "constitutional carry" bill on Friday and toward a measure that would allow Wisconsin residents to carry concealed weapons if they obtain permits and training.

Gov. Scott Walker, who had been silent on the specifics of a bill he would support, issued a statement that formalized his position: "If a concealed carry bill reaches my desk, it should include a permit and training provisions."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/123110233.html

Teej · Aug 16, 2013

pkbites said:
I've been in law enforcement for 31+ years and I do not recommend asking for information regarding the law from any cop.

I've been saying that for years and people look at me like I'm nuts.

Nice to see an experienced cop say that himself and at least you for one won't take offense that I have the same opinion.

Saying that isn't an insult ("Don't ask a cop about the law"). Enforcing the law is not the same as knowing/practicing law.

OC in Car Wthout CCW Permit

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