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Thread: Being questioned by LEO and being "required to provide ID"

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    Being questioned by LEO and being "required to provide ID"

    I am new to the boards and have been wading through the rules over the past few days. What is the laws/rules for when a LEO stops you and asks for your ID solely because you are OC? I have open carried on and off for several years without a problem but honestly do not know the legalities when approached and my is requested. Any input would be appreciated.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    First, welcome to the site.

    Second, I strongly recommend browsing this thread:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ou-should-know

    Third, included in that somewhere is a link to a video titled "don't talk to police":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    It's long but VERY useful information, coming from both a law school professor and an ex-detective.
    Watch it, then put it on your calendar to re-watch regularly.

    Fourth, the group called Flex Your Rights has its own website http://www.flexyourrights.org/
    as well as a channel on youtube. Highly recommended watching their videos too.

    Fifth, ask leading OCers in your state if you live in a "stop & ID" place.
    If not, unless the cop has reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of a crime, you don't have to interact with them at all, even to stop when they say they want to chat.
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    In re D. B.

    NO. COA10-1476
    NORTH CAROLINA COURT OF APPEALS
    Filed: 16 August 2011
    IN THE MATTER OF:
    Durham County
    No. 97 JB 172
    D.B.

    While many states have enacted "stop and identify" statutes such as the one in Hiibel, North Carolina has not.
    http://statecasefiles.justia.com/doc...?ts=1370457888
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    I am new to the boards and have been wading through the rules over the past few days. What is the laws/rules for when a LEO stops you and asks for your ID solely because you are OC? I have open carried on and off for several years without a problem but honestly do not know the legalities when approached and my is requested. Any input would be appreciated.
    what? you afraid to use google?

    I suggest you read your state statues and case law to get a good picture...google scholar is available

    Its state dependent ~ so look up the state in question .. you did not state which state you were interested in...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    what? you afraid to use google?

    I suggest you read your state statues and case law to get a good picture...google scholar is available

    Its state dependent ~ so look up the state in question .. you did not state which state you were interested in...
    Umm no I am not afraid to use google...have quite a bit. I thought that it might be prudent to "ask the experts" so to speak on North Carolina specific laws/regulations in stead of generic information as I asked the question in the North Carolina thread.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    Umm no I am not afraid to use google...have quite a bit. I thought that it might be prudent to "ask the experts" so to speak on North Carolina specific laws/regulations in stead of generic information as I asked the question in the North Carolina thread.
    Your doing fine with your question as posted. OCDO is a great place to get pointed in the right direction. Sorry 'bout the snippy answer you recieved.

    If you can try to make one of the meet n' greets and get to know some of the local folks. You'll find that people are generally more than willing to help.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    what? you afraid to use google?

    I suggest you read your state statues and case law to get a good picture...google scholar is available

    Its state dependent ~ so look up the state in question .. you did not state which state you were interested in...
    Seeing as he posted the thread in the North Carolina subforum I would venture to guess he is not asking about Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin or Wyoming.

    Unless it was moved here by a moderator.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 08-13-2013 at 11:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    --snip--
    Unless it was moved here by a moderator.
    Nope - OP has posted correctly to the NC sub-forum.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Jamesm760's Avatar
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    The only thing a LEO should hear from you is "am I being detained" and "am I free to go"

    Even if the answer for the "am I being detained" question is "yes", then that probably means you are going in the back of a squad car already anyway, so let a lawyer do the talking for you.

    richmond county.... There is a meet in charlotte on Sat 9/7/13 and another in greensboro/high point area on Fri 6/6/13. Try to make it to either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    I am new to the boards and have been wading through the rules over the past few days. What is the laws/rules for when a LEO stops you and asks for your ID solely because you are OC? I have open carried on and off for several years without a problem but honestly do not know the legalities when approached and my is requested. Any input would be appreciated.
    Go to this stickied thread:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-March-22-2012

    and follow the link in the first post for the NC OC Flyer. There is a lot of info in there, although it is not all-encompassing.

    Open Carry in North Carolina is a constitutionally protected, and court upheld, right. Also, North Carolina is NOT a stop and ID state. An officer would need Reasonable and Articulable Suspicion or Probable Cause that you are either involved in or committing a crime in order to stop/detain you. As stated earlier - the only thing you should say is "Am I free to go?" or "Am I being detained?" or some variant thereof.

    Another suggested action to take when carrying openly is to carry on your person a digital voice recorder that is recording all the time. (I use my android phone and an app called "Tape-a-Talk" to do the voice recording. I have one of those dumb looking phone holsters on my belt, so the microphone is always unmuffled and always recording). North Carolina is a single party consent state, so you are free to record any conversation that you are a part of (not that you should actually be conversing with an officer, but you would still be a part of the "conversation"). You don't need to inform the officer that you are recording either.
    Last edited by dmatting; 08-14-2013 at 09:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    what? you afraid to use google?

    I suggest you read your state statues and case law to get a good picture...google scholar is available

    Its state dependent ~ so look up the state in question .. you did not state which state you were interested in...
    Funny, I've seen a lot of the statues in my state and none of them seem to contain any references to laws...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Funny, I've seen a lot of the statues in my state and none of them seem to contain any references to laws...
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Really, I'm concerned about your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Funny, I've seen a lot of the statues in my state and none of them seem to contain any references to laws...
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Really, I'm concerned about your health.
    McBeth, you need to go back and look at exactly what you wrote. Letter by letter. Find the missing letter.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I suggest you read your state statutes and case law to get a good picture...google scholar is available
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Funny, I've seen a lot of the statutes in my state and none of them seem to contain any references to laws...
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Really, I'm concerned about your health.
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    McBeth, you need to go back and look at exactly what you wrote. Letter by letter. Find the missing letter.
    Indeed the scarlet letter.

    Now can we get back on topic, please.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The question is exceedingly vague. 'Stopped by a LEO'. Stopped while in a car, on foot, in a police station, in a school zone, in a low flying aircraft?

    By 'stopped' what does that mean? 'Sir, may I ask you a question?'. If it's that, say 'I don't consent to your approaching me, I'll be on my way'.

    If stopped, you mean thrown up against a wall and handcuffed, I think you should answer questions or ask if you're being detained and what the RAS is.

    HTH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    The question is exceedingly vague. 'Stopped by a LEO'. Stopped while in a car, on foot, in a police station, in a school zone, in a low flying aircraft?

    By 'stopped' what does that mean? 'Sir, may I ask you a question?'. If it's that, say 'I don't consent to your approaching me, I'll be on my way'.

    If stopped, you mean thrown up against a wall and handcuffed, I think you should answer questions or ask if you're being detained and what the RAS is.

    HTH
    I mean stopped while OC during my normal day be it pumping gas, walking thru WalMart picking up a few things....just out and about on foot doing the normal errands of my day. My concern is the whole "Hey, I need to see your ID and run the numbers on your gun to see if it is legal" kind of stopped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    I mean stopped while OC during my normal day be it pumping gas, walking thru WalMart picking up a few things....just out and about on foot doing the normal errands of my day. My concern is the whole "Hey, I need to see your ID and run the numbers on your gun to see if it is legal" kind of stopped.
    Well, the first question is whether its an involuntary encounter. That is to say, is the cop asking for ID consensually, or is he demanding it in an authoritative tone that forecloses declining to provide ID, name, etc.

    A cop, just like any citizen, can approach you and request anything. I use the word request to signify that its something you can decline. Cops take advantage of this by asking for ID and for the gun (so they can run the serial number). Cops also take advantage of this by phrasing things as a request, but using a tone that makes it clear its a demand.

    I mention all this because a lot of people don't seem to understand that the word stop signifies an non-consensual encounter. Meaning involuntary. Meaning you are seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment. The word stop is a shortening of the term Terry Stop, a temporary seizure of the person for investigative purposes. It comes from a US Supreme court case called Terry vs Ohio.

    So, if you mean a stop in the correct sense...then you will need to research your state's law. Keep in mind that law does not immediately translate into tactics. Just because the law says x,y,z does not mean you can derive tactics immediately from the law. For example, Terry says cops can detain someone briefly to investigate them for suspicion of a crime.* And, Terry says each case will have to be judged on its own merits--meaning its the court that decides whether the cop was justified in detaining the person, after the detention--not the person himself during the detention.

    *See Terry for the specifics--the devil is in the details.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-14-2013 at 11:42 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The problem that I find is that local and state LEO are just as ignorant of Terry Stops as they are of Open Carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    The problem that I find is that local and state LEO are just as ignorant of Terry Stops as they are of Open Carry.
    Oh, they're not ignorant. They know darned good and well what they're doing.

    Welcome to modern policing. In the world of OC, we sometimes forget that we are later-comers to the police abuse party. That is to say, if a cop illegally detains an OCer, its virtually guaranteed he was illegally detaining others, too. Other people have known it for years--we just stumbled into it when started OCing. Cops didn't start illegally detaining people all over the country just because OCers started popping up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, they're not ignorant. They know darned good and well what they're doing.

    Welcome to modern policing. In the world of OC, we sometimes forget that we are later-comers to the police abuse party. That is to say, if a cop illegally detains an OCer, its virtually guaranteed he was illegally detaining others, too. Other people have known it for years--we just stumbled into it when started OCing. Cops didn't start illegally detaining people all over the country just because OCers started popping up.
    citizen, you are correct with your comments about OC'ers being 'johnny come lately' to the LE attention bandwidth but thanks to modern technology, leading to increased awareness being spread through this technology, coupled with a group mentality to assist our own, this OC group is pushing back, in some cases effectively.

    now the Raleigh LE are trying to intimidate those that feed the homeless by threatening to arrest the organizers with a unnamed or uncited raleigh ordinance referenced during the initial confrontation.

    http://www.wral.com/raleigh-city-lea...flap/12818647/

    actually quite surprised WRAL took an interest and is discussing the issue at all

    ipse

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    Here are Raleigh, NC ordinances at Municode, including firearms related

    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    I mean stopped while OC during my normal day be it pumping gas, walking thru WalMart picking up a few things....just out and about on foot doing the normal errands of my day. My concern is the whole "Hey, I need to see your ID and run the numbers on your gun to see if it is legal" kind of stopped.
    I suppose my first question would likely (but perhaps not optimally) be "Why do you need to see my id?" And if they wanted to run the serial on my gun, I would suggest they get a warrant or make an appointment with my attorney.

    I have also taken lately to not letting anyone hold or take any of my id other than a credit card when paying. I do not trust anyone to take it out of my sight...and this goes for police. As far as I have been able to find out, and thinking back to my academy days in NC, I believe you are only required to DISPLAY your ID, not PRESENT it (except when renewing at the DMV).

    That said, "most" police in NC don't seem to be too concerned with someone OCing...just be careful that you are doing it where it is allowed (see the state "sticky" for the legal locations).
    Last edited by carolina guy; 08-27-2013 at 12:05 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    I decided to be a bit proactive today and spoke with both the Deputy Sheriff and city Chief of Police. The Deputy Sheriff assured me that none of his men would do much more than acknowledge that I was carrying and the City PD Chief stated that he would personally instruct all of his supervisors to refresh his dept on open carry, that it is legal and that none of his officers would bother me unless I was waving it around or something. Both did state that if they were called that they were required to respond but it would be non confrontational and that every effort would be made to educate the public. Both were very friendly and courteous. I guess we shall see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffy_ssd View Post
    I decided to be a bit proactive today and spoke with both the Deputy Sheriff and city Chief of Police. The Deputy Sheriff assured me that none of his men would do much more than acknowledge that I was carrying and the City PD Chief stated that he would personally instruct all of his supervisors to refresh his dept on open carry, that it is legal and that none of his officers would bother me unless I was waving it around or something. Both did state that if they were called that they were required to respond but it would be non confrontational and that every effort would be made to educate the public. Both were very friendly and courteous. I guess we shall see.
    Excellent, educating the public is good! When sheeple call the PD, the PD probably doesn't ask any questions(or the right ones), they probably just take the call and dispatch. They need to begin asking

    "are they waving it around?"
    "did they threaten you?"
    "did they point it at you?"
    "is the fire arm holstered?"
    "then why are you calling us?"
    Last edited by Jamesm760; 08-27-2013 at 11:04 PM.
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