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Thread: Looks like James City County might be a problem

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Looks like James City County might be a problem

    http://www.vagazette.com/news/va-vg-...,2609680.story

    JAMES CITY – Security is on the minds ofJames City County employees and others in the wake of an Aug. 5 fatal shooting during a supervisors meeting in a rural Pennsylvania township.


    Between heated rhetoric and more citizens openly carrying firearms to public meetings, both officials and citizens are pondering the nuances between rhetoric, political statement, intimidation and actual threats. It may also lead to new ways to deliver public comment.


    In Pennsylvania, a lone shooter who had been involved in a decade-long zoning dispute with the locality struck during a public meeting. According to news reports he killed three people, including a supervisor, and wounding three more.





    "That is distressing," County Administrator Robert Middaugh said of the shooting. "That's a horrible circumstance that could happen anywhere. Unfortunately, it's not an isolated incident."


    Middaugh said there is typically at least one law enforcement officer at every Board of Supervisors meeting and more have been scheduled when officials know a particularly controversial group or issue will come up on the agenda.


    That was the case this spring when members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun lobby group, showed up to a supervisors meeting in number. They were there to protest the county's decision to remove a pro-Second Amendment statement Sheriff Bob Deeds had posted to his web page. The site is hosted on county servers, and the statement was deemed political.


    Many of the members carried firearms at that meeting. It is legal to openly carry in most places, including Virginia government building, but not the General Assembly. To conceal a firearm requires a permit, and all firearms are prohibited in some places, such as schools and churches.


    The issue came up again at the county's two recent rural lands meetings. During one, held at NorgeElementary School, W. Walker Ware IV, a speaker who was asked to summarize his comments about government control, said, "I think we take up muskets and start killing people."


    Another attendee, Wayne Moyer, immediately asked Ware the speaker to back off the suggestion, saying it "bothers me very much."


    At a second rural lands meeting held the next morning at the county's Recreation Center, Joseph Swanenburg, who was present at the Norge meeting, carried his firearm openly.


    Middaugh confirmed that a number of county staffers returned to their offices later that day visibly shaken and upset by the mixture of anti-government rhetoric and firepower.


    "When people talk about 'get out the muskets,'" Middaugh said, "it would tend to creep out most people. And staff was no exception in that regard."


    More concerning to officials is that other citizens are not participating in public discourse because of the climate. "It takes a significant event for someone to come out, at this point," Middaugh said.


    In response, officials are exploring ways to exploit technology, such as setting up virtual town hall meetings. Those would allow people to participate from home. Changes in people's preferences are already pushing government that way, he said.


    Reached last Thursday, Ware would not comment on what he was trying to convey during the rural lands meeting and called reporting on it "a cheap shot." He also vehemently denied making the statement.


    Swanenburg said carrying a firearm the next morning had nothing to do with Ware's statement, which he interpreted as alluding to the events of 1776 and frustration with government control and abuse.


    "I hadn't even thought of it," he said in an interview.


    Swanenburg did, however, carry his weapon to the second meeting as a statement.


    He was reacting to the fact that the county had scheduled the first meeting in a location where he couldn't legally carry concealed (a school), so he responded by carrying openly the next morning.


    "First of all, I don't necessarily agree with open carry," he said. "Very seldom do I do it. I did it because the night before, I wasn't allowed.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Apparently they are missing the message about how the citizens feel about top-down, heavy handed government.

    But regardless of that, they are definartely headed towards becoming "a problem" both as regards their response to the lawful carry of firearms and as regards their notions of using social media to conduct public business.

    More concerning to officials is that other citizens are not participating in public discourse because of the climate. "It takes a significant event for someone to come out, at this point," Middaugh said.

    In response, officials are exploring ways to exploit technology, such as setting up virtual town hall meetings. Those would allow people to participate from home. Changes in people's preferences are already pushing government that way, he said.
    The way it is now, citizen participation is pretty much taken up by those who are willing to put some effort into their being a part of the process. If virtual meetings are opened up so that every bozo with a keyboard can - and will - chime in with what they think is actally worth two cents, then it will become impossible to conduct any business. Are there plans to deal with thread drift, personal attacks, side issues and just the overwhelmingness of wading through so many comments coming in so fast and furious that it will be neigh onto impossible to keep up with them, let alone get to some sort of understanding of them? And the masses will whine even more mightily when decisions ae not being made based on the mere volume of likes/dislikes.

    It's getting to the point that I think it would be worth while at every public meeting to read the first paragraph* of Marko Kloos' "Why the Gun Is Civilization" and then inform the public servants that the gun you are wearing is there only should they decide that they are no longer interested in/willing to convincing by reason and want instead to resort to force.

    stay safe.

    * -
    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.
    http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.co...-civilization/
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    Regular Member RogerP's Avatar
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    Middaugh confirmed that a number of county staffers returned to their offices later that day visibly shaken and upset by the mixture of anti-government rhetoric and firepower.
    Arguably the intent of the Second Amendment. This is a good thing.
    Last edited by RogerP; 08-14-2013 at 10:58 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
    Arguably the intent of the Second Amendment. This is a good thing.
    It could be good or bad. In this case I think it may be bad.

    There was a second page to the story and Philip responded to it. I admit I was wincing waiting for him to say something like "Everyone with a permit has been trained and screened"....but he didn't Thank Heaven!

    The bad is that the county is discussing ways to circumvent preemption because they're scared.

    They're being pretty cagey about it and talking about online meetings and holding meetings in schools. They are mistaken in thinking churches are off limits but they are also on the table for meeting places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
    Arguably the intent of the Second Amendment. This is a good thing.
    When I call my reps .. I always say "I'm just here cleaning my gun and had a question for the rep .." they are always very nice to me.

    Go figure. As for them not feeling safe? That's a shame. tsk tsk tsk They are free to pursue other endeavors.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It could be good or bad. In this case I think it may be bad.

    There was a second page to the story and Philip responded to it. I admit I was wincing waiting for him to say something like "Everyone with a permit has been trained and screened"....but he didn't Thank Heaven!

    The bad is that the county is discussing ways to circumvent preemption because they're scared.

    They're being pretty cagey about it and talking about online meetings and holding meetings in schools. They are mistaken in thinking churches are off limits but they are also on the table for meeting places.
    First, let me provide the single-page link:

    Guns at public meetings invoke uneasy peace

    Now, as Rush would say, here is the Pull-Quote:
    At a second rural lands meeting held the next morning at the county's Recreation Center, Joseph Swanenburg, who was present at the Norge meeting, carried his firearm openly.

    Middaugh confirmed that a number of county staffers returned to their offices later that day visibly shaken and upset by the mixture of anti-government rhetoric and firepower.

    "When people talk about 'get out the muskets,'" Middaugh said, "it would tend to creep out most people. And staff was no exception in that regard."
    So, Open-Carry EQUALS it would tend to creep out most people.

    And that, basically, is all you need to know about the Hoplophobic mentality.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Middaugh confirmed that a number of county staffers returned to their offices later that day visibly shaken and upset by the mixture of anti-government rhetoric and firepower.

    When people talk about 'get out the muskets,'" Middaugh said, "it would tend to creep out most people. And staff was no exception in that regard."
    lol. Good. You work for government: you deserve to be leery of the people. Not necessarily because you're doing bad things, or because anybody has any justifiable reason to hurt you, but simply because that's the way it's supposed to work. That's a major part of the intent of the Second Amendment. Government should be scared of the people. It should mollify its fears by respecting their rights and not being tyrannical.

    I submit that if such "rhetoric and firepower" leaves you "visibly shaken" (rather than just normally leery), either A: you probably use your job as an excuse to be aggressive, in which case tough ****, or B: you need to go get a job without serious responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
    Arguably the intent of the Second Amendment. This is a good thing.
    Well, there you go, someone beat me to it. +1 to you, sir.
    Last edited by marshaul; 08-14-2013 at 04:12 PM.

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    What does it say of an elected official that is afraid to face his armed constituency, the very people that elected him?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    What does it say of an elected official that is afraid to face his armed constituency, the very people that elected him?
    Exactly. As usual, sir, you run rings around me when it comes to brevity and succinctness.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    What does it say of an elected official that is afraid to face his armed constituency, the very people that elected him?
    It all depends on why they are armed.

    In this case the attempt is being made to directly correlate being lawfully armed with intentional intimidation of government employees and the process of government.

    The thing is, I'll bet they would respond essentially the same way if we all wore corderoy bellbottoms or dinner plates in our lower lips or American flag pins in our lapels. "They" are convinced that any expression of disagreement is the same as both discontent and an open statement of some intent to diselect those currently in office.

    And that last is the 800-pound gorilla in the Board of Supervisors meeting room. People do not spend 5 or 10 times the annual renumeration of a public office in order to get into that public office just because they have an overwhelming compulsion to perform community service. No, not all politicians are crooks. But many of them to quack remarkably.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It all depends on why they are armed.
    Why is the constituency armed? That's like asking why they don't have police quartered in their homes. The constituency is armed. Why is irrelevant (aside from it being their right) and covers an entire spectrum of human activity.
    Last edited by marshaul; 08-14-2013 at 05:16 PM.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I had my say on their comment section. Look for "Alan W. Rose" and see my multi-part tome.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I had my say on their comment section. Look for "Alan W. Rose" and see my multi-part tome.
    You do need a CHP to carry openly in the General Assembly Building. It's cited on the VCDL Carry Card as "Joint Rules Committee Rule".

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    You do need a CHP to carry openly in the General Assembly Building. It's cited on the VCDL Carry Card as "Joint Rules Committee Rule".

    TFred

    You do and you don't TFred.
    The joint rules committee is just a committee. Their rules have to be passed by the legislature just like any bill that moves out of committee.

    This never was...it was never even presented. Check with the Clerk and you'll get a "Huh...What rule?"

    BUT...I don't want to be the one explaining to a Richmond Judge that the rule is illegal and in fact doesn't exist.

    What you'd be charged with BTW, is trespassing.
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-15-2013 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    You do need a CHP to carry openly in the General Assembly Building. It's cited on the VCDL Carry Card as "Joint Rules Committee Rule".

    TFred
    Ah but the reporter said no OC at the GA.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    You do need a CHP to carry openly in the General Assembly Building. It's cited on the VCDL Carry Card as "Joint Rules Committee Rule".

    TFred
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You do and you don't TFred.
    The joint rules committee is just a committee. Their rules have to be passed by the legislature just like any bill that moves out of committee.

    This never was...it was never even presented. Check with the Clerk and you'll get a "Huh...What rule?"

    BUT...I don't want to be the one explaining to a Richmond Judge that the rule is illegal and in fact doesn't exist.

    What you'd be charged with BTW, is trespassing.
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Ah but the reporter said no OC at the GA.
    Peter is right. The "rule" was a Joint Resolution Committee effort and was never properly enacted - in fact it was never presented for consideration.

    Even a trespass charge should be tossed, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

    Then there is the reporter thing - not the most reliable source of information as I recall.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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