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Thread: Woman with concealed-carry permit breaks up robbery...

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    Regular Member Black_water's Avatar
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    Woman with concealed-carry permit breaks up robbery...

    Woman with concealed-carry permit breaks up robbery...

    Woman opens fire on group of robbers at Denny's

    http://www.click2houston.com/news/wo...c/-/index.html

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Being discussed elsewhere http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ife-will-shoot! without the mysoginistic name-calling.

    Still have problems with her using cars in the parking lot as a backstop, as well as the lack of sufficient information on the reasonableness of the shooting.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Still have problems with her using cars in the parking lot as a backstop, as well as the lack of sufficient information on the reasonableness of the shooting.
    Hey, well, at least she has been trained to better than the NYPD standards. Cars in a parking lot are whole lot better than crowds.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Woman with concealed-carry permit breaks up robbery...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Hey, well, at least she has been trained to better than the NYPD standards. Cars in a parking lot are whole lot better than crowds.
    Yep, by NYPD standards she's a sharp shooter. Now I must say that anyone seeing a loved one in danger will have a little "shake" in their hands. Good for her defending her husband. One other note - TX is a NO OC state. Wonder if the thugs would have tried this if they saw several openly armed customers prior to going into Denny's? We'll never know since TX makes it citizens hide their pistols, but something tells me OC may have kept this crime from ever happening.
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    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Wonder if the thugs would have tried this if they saw several openly armed customers prior to going into Denny's?
    All we have to do is look at the Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA, where two openly armed patrons apparently deterred an armed robbery attempt by TWO carloads of armed thugs.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Yeah, but I'm very car-anal so I would hope that wouldn't be my car. Certainly don't like the thought of broken windows and holes in the body.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member Chrisdxn's Avatar
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    I have a question based on this specific shooting. I noticed in the video it talked about and showed several
    cars that were hit by stray bullets.

    Question: Who is Liable?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisdxn View Post
    ...several cars that were hit by stray bullets. Question: Who is Liable?
    Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-19-2013 at 03:17 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.
    Respectfully, I disagree. The mantra since before dirt was voted on (I was against it - rocks are all we ever need) has been that the shooter is responsible for every bullet that comes out the end of the barrel. Responsible if it kills/wounds a bystander, regardless of how innocent or not they might have been so long as they were not presenting an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Responsible if it puts holes in someone's personal property. Responsible if it damages public property.

    In real life it is most likely that the owner of the ventilated car will need to ask their insurance company to cover the loss - most likely under comprehensive damage although I could make an argument for billing it against uninsured motorist coverage. The shooter's insurance most likely will not cover it because she intentionally and purposely pulled the trigger. That means it was not an accident. (She will hear from your insurance company later on, when they ask her to reimburse them or ask a judge to tell her to reimburse them. Can you say "subrogation? I knew you could!)

    While the law allows you to take a shot in an attempt to stop an imminent threat, it does not require you to take the shot. The decision is one of personal ethics, personal moral code, and personal assumption of risk in doing so. Yes, most of us have to one degree or another worked out some sort of answer to if and when we would shoot - but none of that was based on the requirements of some law that set out penalties for not doing so.

    Necesssity has nothing to do with responsibility for damages caused by bullets that did not hit the intended target of BG. You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrrel. Whatever happens, it is your responsibility.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ...You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrel...
    This is where I have the slight disagreement.

    For example, the hot expanding gases are what caused the bullet to come out of the barrel.
    The primer igniting those gases...
    The firing pin striking that primer...
    The trigger releasing the hammer/striker...
    My trigger finger pressing the trigger...
    My need to use effective immediate self-defense...
    A bad guy presenting a clear and present deadly threat...

    It's not completely arbitrary, no, but it's not a simple "my fault" neither.

    Felons can be charged with murder if someone dies as a result of anything happening that kills someone in the commission of their crime, even if someone else pulled the trigger on their partner.

    Yes, we are responsible for our bullets. I don't want my reasoning to be taken lightly. But if I have to put a hole in your car to have the most effective means of saving myself from a deadly threat, I'm going to do it and not feel bad about it, and I will argue to the court that the man I shot is additionally responsible for fixing your car.

    Now, I might get stiffed and have to pay for it myself, and I will, but I will still argue that the bad guy is responsible.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    This is where I have the slight disagreement.

    For example, the hot expanding gases are what caused the bullet to come out of the barrel.
    The primer igniting those gases...
    The firing pin striking that primer...
    The trigger releasing the hammer/striker...
    A string of events all fiollowing from your volitional decision to pull that trigger. Nothing in the world "forced" you to do that - as in caused you to do it even if you did not want to do it.

    My trigger finger pressing the trigger...
    Now you are getting it - you decided to do that, as opposed to some outside force making your muscles move in such a manner as to manipulate the trigger.

    My need to use effective immediate self-defense...
    "Need"? How come you have this "need" when the majority of the population (all those non-gun carriers/non-gun owners) does not have that "need"? You are talking about a (I hope) reasoned decision to follow a course of action that has as its logical conclusuion the defensive use of a firearm. But it is a decision many people do not make, whih makes me ask how you come to define it as a "need".

    Yes, I also desire to not become dead/seriously injured if I can avoid it. And I agree that in some situations the defensive use of a firearm is an effective way to avoid becoming dead or seriously injured at the hand of someone else. But it is a desire, not a "need". (I need to eat in order to stay alive. I desire to eat pizza as opposed to eating tofu. But eating either will keep me alive.)

    A bad guy presenting a clear and present deadly threat...
    Again - your choice of one among many possible responses/reactions. There are, as noted above, many more people that do not select this response/reaction. Some of them select running away - and remain alive for having done that. Some select "just giving them what they want" - and remain alive for having done that.

    It's not completely arbitrary, no, but it's not a simple "my fault" neither.
    Actually, yes it is completely and utterly "your fault". Regardless of how reasoned or how unreasoned it was you made a decision and carried out a course of action. And that includes taking a shot that you could not guarantee would only impact the identified threat.

    Felons can be charged with murder if someone dies as a result of anything happening that kills someone in the commission of their crime, even if someone else pulled the trigger on their partner.
    But somehow you should not be held responsible for the bullets that you shot that hit something other than what you intended them to hit? (Do I indicate some level of sarcasm? Is it really sarcasm, as opposed to snark? I'm not sure.)

    Yes, we are responsible for our bullets. I don't want my reasoning to be taken lightly. But if I have to put a hole in your car to have the most effective means of saving myself from a deadly threat, I'm going to do it and not feel bad about it, and I will argue to the court that the man I shot is additionally responsible for fixing your car.
    See everything above. Be prepared to be laughed at as well as being told that line simply does not follow established legal reasoning, which happens in this case to actually follow established/accepted moral reasoning. You always had the choice not to shoot, even though you had a firearm in your hand.

    Now, I might get stiffed and have to pay for it myself, and I will, but I will still argue that the bad guy is responsible.
    Back when I was employed by the state prison system, I had opportunities to discuss parole application cases with the members of the Parole Board. The chairman often asked inmates this rather simple question: "If someone was holding a gun to your head and told you that if you did not commit <the crime the inmate was convicted of> they would shoot you. Under those circumstances, is there anything you could do to not commit that crime?" I never heard an inmate say that they could let themselves be shot as opposed to committing the crime. (Yes, it's a pretty crappy alternative, but it is an alternative.) The point being that you always have alternatives. It's just that many of those alternatives result in consequences we do not want.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.
    Injuring a innocent citizen, life of poverty is warranted for the shooter. Killing, negligent homicide (or equivalent), a life of poverty after a lengthy stay in the Big House.

    If you want to pray and spray become a cop.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    So imperfect marksmanship equals spray and pray? You are not one of the people I expect that kind of crap discussion from here.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. The mantra since before dirt was voted on (I was against it - rocks are all we ever need) has been that the shooter is responsible for every bullet that comes out the end of the barrel. Responsible if it kills/wounds a bystander, regardless of how innocent or not they might have been so long as they were not presenting an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Responsible if it puts holes in someone's personal property. Responsible if it damages public property.

    In real life it is most likely that the owner of the ventilated car will need to ask their insurance company to cover the loss - most likely under comprehensive damage although I could make an argument for billing it against uninsured motorist coverage. The shooter's insurance most likely will not cover it because she intentionally and purposely pulled the trigger. That means it was not an accident. (She will hear from your insurance company later on, when they ask her to reimburse them or ask a judge to tell her to reimburse them. Can you say "subrogation? I knew you could!)

    While the law allows you to take a shot in an attempt to stop an imminent threat, it does not require you to take the shot. The decision is one of personal ethics, personal moral code, and personal assumption of risk in doing so. Yes, most of us have to one degree or another worked out some sort of answer to if and when we would shoot - but none of that was based on the requirements of some law that set out penalties for not doing so.

    Necesssity has nothing to do with responsibility for damages caused by bullets that did not hit the intended target of BG. You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrrel. Whatever happens, it is your responsibility.

    stay safe.
    According to Dan, if you are faced with a situation where you must use deadly force and one or more of your rounds strikes an innocent bystander, it is the perp who will be held legally liable in our state. This doesn't mean that the victim will be free from a lawsuit, but only that he will not have to face criminal charges (the assumption being that his actions in his defense were found to be justified).
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    So imperfect marksmanship equals spray and pray? You are not one of the people I expect that kind of crap discussion from here.
    Where's the - Like - button?
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