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Woman with concealed-carry permit breaks up robbery...

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Still have problems with her using cars in the parking lot as a backstop, as well as the lack of sufficient information on the reasonableness of the shooting.

Hey, well, at least she has been trained to better than the NYPD standards. Cars in a parking lot are whole lot better than crowds. :lol:
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
Hey, well, at least she has been trained to better than the NYPD standards. Cars in a parking lot are whole lot better than crowds. :lol:

Yep, by NYPD standards she's a sharp shooter. Now I must say that anyone seeing a loved one in danger will have a little "shake" in their hands. Good for her defending her husband. One other note - TX is a NO OC state. Wonder if the thugs would have tried this if they saw several openly armed customers prior to going into Denny's? We'll never know since TX makes it citizens hide their pistols, but something tells me OC may have kept this crime from ever happening. ;)
 

Elm Creek Smith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
204
Location
In the county.
Wonder if the thugs would have tried this if they saw several openly armed customers prior to going into Denny's?

All we have to do is look at the Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA, where two openly armed patrons apparently deterred an armed robbery attempt by TWO carloads of armed thugs.

ECS
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...several cars that were hit by stray bullets. Question: Who is Liable?

Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.

Respectfully, I disagree. The mantra since before dirt was voted on (I was against it - rocks are all we ever need) has been that the shooter is responsible for every bullet that comes out the end of the barrel. Responsible if it kills/wounds a bystander, regardless of how innocent or not they might have been so long as they were not presenting an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Responsible if it puts holes in someone's personal property. Responsible if it damages public property.

In real life it is most likely that the owner of the ventilated car will need to ask their insurance company to cover the loss - most likely under comprehensive damage although I could make an argument for billing it against uninsured motorist coverage. The shooter's insurance most likely will not cover it because she intentionally and purposely pulled the trigger. That means it was not an accident. (She will hear from your insurance company later on, when they ask her to reimburse them or ask a judge to tell her to reimburse them. Can you say "subrogation? I knew you could!)

While the law allows you to take a shot in an attempt to stop an imminent threat, it does not require you to take the shot. The decision is one of personal ethics, personal moral code, and personal assumption of risk in doing so. Yes, most of us have to one degree or another worked out some sort of answer to if and when we would shoot - but none of that was based on the requirements of some law that set out penalties for not doing so.

Necesssity has nothing to do with responsibility for damages caused by bullets that did not hit the intended target of BG. You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrrel. Whatever happens, it is your responsibility.

stay safe.
 

MAC702

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Jul 31, 2011
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6,331
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Nevada
...You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrel...

This is where I have the slight disagreement.

For example, the hot expanding gases are what caused the bullet to come out of the barrel.
The primer igniting those gases...
The firing pin striking that primer...
The trigger releasing the hammer/striker...
My trigger finger pressing the trigger...
My need to use effective immediate self-defense...
A bad guy presenting a clear and present deadly threat...

It's not completely arbitrary, no, but it's not a simple "my fault" neither.

Felons can be charged with murder if someone dies as a result of anything happening that kills someone in the commission of their crime, even if someone else pulled the trigger on their partner.

Yes, we are responsible for our bullets. I don't want my reasoning to be taken lightly. But if I have to put a hole in your car to have the most effective means of saving myself from a deadly threat, I'm going to do it and not feel bad about it, and I will argue to the court that the man I shot is additionally responsible for fixing your car.

Now, I might get stiffed and have to pay for it myself, and I will, but I will still argue that the bad guy is responsible.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
This is where I have the slight disagreement.

For example, the hot expanding gases are what caused the bullet to come out of the barrel.
The primer igniting those gases...
The firing pin striking that primer...
The trigger releasing the hammer/striker...

A string of events all fiollowing from your volitional decision to pull that trigger. Nothing in the world "forced" you to do that - as in caused you to do it even if you did not want to do it.

My trigger finger pressing the trigger...

Now you are getting it - you decided to do that, as opposed to some outside force making your muscles move in such a manner as to manipulate the trigger.

My need to use effective immediate self-defense...

"Need"? How come you have this "need" when the majority of the population (all those non-gun carriers/non-gun owners) does not have that "need"? You are talking about a (I hope) reasoned decision to follow a course of action that has as its logical conclusuion the defensive use of a firearm. But it is a decision many people do not make, whih makes me ask how you come to define it as a "need".

Yes, I also desire to not become dead/seriously injured if I can avoid it. And I agree that in some situations the defensive use of a firearm is an effective way to avoid becoming dead or seriously injured at the hand of someone else. But it is a desire, not a "need". (I need to eat in order to stay alive. I desire to eat pizza as opposed to eating tofu. But eating either will keep me alive.)

A bad guy presenting a clear and present deadly threat...

Again - your choice of one among many possible responses/reactions. There are, as noted above, many more people that do not select this response/reaction. Some of them select running away - and remain alive for having done that. Some select "just giving them what they want" - and remain alive for having done that.

It's not completely arbitrary, no, but it's not a simple "my fault" neither.

Actually, yes it is completely and utterly "your fault". Regardless of how reasoned or how unreasoned it was you made a decision and carried out a course of action. And that includes taking a shot that you could not guarantee would only impact the identified threat.

Felons can be charged with murder if someone dies as a result of anything happening that kills someone in the commission of their crime, even if someone else pulled the trigger on their partner.

But somehow you should not be held responsible for the bullets that you shot that hit something other than what you intended them to hit? (Do I indicate some level of sarcasm? Is it really sarcasm, as opposed to snark? I'm not sure.)

Yes, we are responsible for our bullets. I don't want my reasoning to be taken lightly. But if I have to put a hole in your car to have the most effective means of saving myself from a deadly threat, I'm going to do it and not feel bad about it, and I will argue to the court that the man I shot is additionally responsible for fixing your car.

See everything above. Be prepared to be laughed at as well as being told that line simply does not follow established legal reasoning, which happens in this case to actually follow established/accepted moral reasoning. You always had the choice not to shoot, even though you had a firearm in your hand.

Now, I might get stiffed and have to pay for it myself, and I will, but I will still argue that the bad guy is responsible.

Back when I was employed by the state prison system, I had opportunities to discuss parole application cases with the members of the Parole Board. The chairman often asked inmates this rather simple question: "If someone was holding a gun to your head and told you that if you did not commit <the crime the inmate was convicted of> they would shoot you. Under those circumstances, is there anything you could do to not commit that crime?" I never heard an inmate say that they could let themselves be shot as opposed to committing the crime. (Yes, it's a pretty crappy alternative, but it is an alternative.) The point being that you always have alternatives. It's just that many of those alternatives result in consequences we do not want.

stay safe.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Good question. If it was my car, I could probably blame the shooter and make a case for it. But if I were the shooter, I would pass that liability to the bad guy who forced the shooting to be necessary, and make the case that perfect marksmanship is not required so long as no innocents are put in danger because of it. So the necessity of the shooting will be critical.
Injuring a innocent citizen, life of poverty is warranted for the shooter. Killing, negligent homicide (or equivalent), a life of poverty after a lengthy stay in the Big House.

If you want to pray and spray become a cop.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
So imperfect marksmanship equals spray and pray? You are not one of the people I expect that kind of crap discussion from here.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Respectfully, I disagree. The mantra since before dirt was voted on (I was against it - rocks are all we ever need) has been that the shooter is responsible for every bullet that comes out the end of the barrel. Responsible if it kills/wounds a bystander, regardless of how innocent or not they might have been so long as they were not presenting an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Responsible if it puts holes in someone's personal property. Responsible if it damages public property.

In real life it is most likely that the owner of the ventilated car will need to ask their insurance company to cover the loss - most likely under comprehensive damage although I could make an argument for billing it against uninsured motorist coverage. The shooter's insurance most likely will not cover it because she intentionally and purposely pulled the trigger. That means it was not an accident. (She will hear from your insurance company later on, when they ask her to reimburse them or ask a judge to tell her to reimburse them. Can you say "subrogation? I knew you could!)

While the law allows you to take a shot in an attempt to stop an imminent threat, it does not require you to take the shot. The decision is one of personal ethics, personal moral code, and personal assumption of risk in doing so. Yes, most of us have to one degree or another worked out some sort of answer to if and when we would shoot - but none of that was based on the requirements of some law that set out penalties for not doing so.

Necesssity has nothing to do with responsibility for damages caused by bullets that did not hit the intended target of BG. You caused the bullet to come out the end of the barrrel. Whatever happens, it is your responsibility.

stay safe.

According to Dan, if you are faced with a situation where you must use deadly force and one or more of your rounds strikes an innocent bystander, it is the perp who will be held legally liable in our state. This doesn't mean that the victim will be free from a lawsuit, but only that he will not have to face criminal charges (the assumption being that his actions in his defense were found to be justified).
 
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