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Thread: Morrow County Fair Board (Mt. Gilead) thinks I am a "radical troublemaker"

  1. #1
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    Morrow County Fair Board (Mt. Gilead) thinks I am a "radical troublemaker"

    I have a thread going over in OFCC's 9.68 compliance thread, but I wanted to get some input from the Open Carry crowd, of which I consider myself one of. I will try to give a concise overview of events that have transpired up to now.

    Aug. 2
    I sent a message to the Morrow County Fair Board, stating that I believed the signs posted "No Carry" at the fair were illegal.

    Aug. 13
    I placed a call to follow up with the fair board, and was given the number for Dan Rogers, President of the Morrow County Fair Board. I called Mr. Rogers, and stated that my wife and I planned on attending, and we WOULD be open carrying, as that is the law. I also stated that my emails to him and others were all public record, and could show that the relevant laws and court decisions WERE known to them ahead of time, and that any harassment could lead to a 1984 federal civil rights lawsuit. He told me NOT to threaten him. He said that he was a CHL holder, but he feels the signs are okay, and referred me to the Morrow County Prosecutor and Sheriff.

    I then spoke with Mr. Charles Howland, the Morrow County Prosecutor. Mr. Howland stated that he does NOT represent the Fair Board, but that his understanding of the law showed that the fair could NOT post the open areas of the fair, but he wasn't sure about the buildings. (In Ohio, public buildings ARE forbidden, excepting dedicated restroom, open air pavilions, and parking garages.)

    I sent a version of My Wife Said Yes' letter to the fair board:

    We are a group of concerned citizens here in Ross County. It has come to our attention that the parking lots and entrances to the Ross County Fairgrounds are posted with “No Gun” signs in clear violation of Ohio Revised Code 9.68.

    In response to this discovery, one of our members contacted the Sheriff to discuss the issue. The Sheriff stated that the Ross County Agricultural Society leases the fairgrounds from Ross County for $1 per year and considers itself to be a private organization, thereby allowing it to post the fairgrounds as a No Gun Zone. After contacting Ohioans for Concealed Carry and doing a little research, we discovered that this is not correct. The Ohio Attorney General has determined in Ohio Attorney General Opinion 88-034 that Agricultural Societies are political subdivisions. Furthermore, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled in Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming (2000), 89 Ohio St. 3d 551 that Agricultural Societies are political subdivisions. Political subdivisions can NOT violate Ohio’s Concealed Carry Law and specifically ORC 9.68. We have enclosed the Attorney General’s Opinion 88-034 and the Supreme Court Case “Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming (2000), 89 Ohio St. 3d 551” for your review.

    Therefore, we request that you promptly remove the “No Gun” signs at the entrances to the parking lots and entrances to the fair itself. It is our hope that we can resolve this issue amicably and our only goal is to have the signs removed in accordance with the law.

    Aug. 14th
    I received the following e-mail from Mr. Rogers in reply:

    The Morrow County Sherriff will be in contact with you on this issue.

    A copy of your e mail will be forwarded to the Ohio Attorney General’s Office.

    Dan Rogers, Morrow County Agricultural Society

    This reply was also cced to Sheriff Brenneman.

    I spoke with Sheriff Brenneman, and he stated that he has not had enough time to look into all of the details as of yet, as he is VERY busy with the NASCAR Nationwide Series race at Mid-Ohio this weekend. He told me he would be in touch at the beginning of next week.

    Aug 15th
    I received a call from:

    Michael A. Vartorella
    Chief Inspector
    Assistant Division Chief
    Amusement Ride Safety.
    Director of Fairs

    He stated that he had not yet run me through the DHS database yet, but that the M. Cty. Fair Board was concerned with some "extremist" coming down from Cleveland to "their" fair. He stated that he thinks the signs are improper, but that I should just carry concealed. I responded that my wife and I are still waiting on our CHLs, and would not generally choose to carry that way (discreetly) regardless... He mentioned "putting a target on your back" at least 8 times... he then said that the Fair Board was also contacting the Ohio AGs office...

    MWSY, my wife and I were planning on attending the fair... but I am beginning to feel concern for the response we may receive.. Any comments or feedback?

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Re: Morrow County Fair Board (Mt. Gilead) thinks I am a "radical troublemaker"

    See if you have any friends in the area that can also accompany you. Record all day everday [within the law] and make sure all those with you are recording too.

    Sounds to me like you would have a good case if they tried to pull anything on you.

    Other than that, it seema like you just have to go there and see what happens. I don't know off the top of my head what other actions you could take.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    I'm an idiot... i posted it about Ross county.... I feel foolish...

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    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Mike Vartorella's Additional Information

    Interests:Accident Investigations, Harley Davidson motorcycles, pistol shooting
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    My letter to the AG:

    A friend of mine contacted the Morrow County Agriculture Society to have them remove their "No Guns" signs from the grounds (but not the buildings). My friend open carries his handgun on his hip, as do I.


    Dan Rodgers of the Morrow Co. Fair Board said the Ag. Society was a private organization and that the signs were ok. He suggested contacting the county Sheriff or the county Prosecutor.


    Both the Sheriff and the Prosecutor believe that the fairgrounds should NOT be posted, but the prosecutor stated that they did NOT represent the Agriculture Society.

    When my friend replied to Mr. Rodgers, pointing out that the Ohio Supreme Court decision in Greene County Ag. Society v. Liming says an 'independent' Society is still a political subdivision of the state, Mr. Rodgers replied that my friend shouldn't make threats.


    Mr. Rodgers said that my friends letter would be forwarded to the county Sheriff as well as the Attorney General's office.

    On August 15, my friend received a phone call from Mike Vartorella, Asst. Division Chief at Ohio Dept. of Agriculture (Chief Ride Inspector?) stating that he had not yet run my friend through the Department of Homeland Security database and that the Fair Board was worried about some extremist group from Cleveland coming down to their fair. He also advised my friend that he should just conceal carry and used the phrase 'putting a target on your back' at least 8 times during the conversation.


    IF contacted by the Morrow County Agriculture Society or the Morrow County Fair Board, please advise them of the laws under ORC 1711, the meaning of case law such as Greene County Ag. Soc. V. Liming, and of their duties under ORC 9.68.

    As a layman, I believe the Morrow County fairgrounds should not be allowed to post "No Guns" signs anywhere except their buildings, (other than buildings used primarily as restrooms, shelters, etc.)


    I will attempt to contact Gary Hill, Mike Vartorella's supervisor at the Ohio Dept. of Agriculture, to see if he authorized Mr. Vartorella's contact with my friend.

    As a former Columbus Police Department SWAT officer, I hope Mr. Hill did not approve the cheap intimidation tactic of name-dropping the Department of Homeland Security.


    Thanks!
    I'll call the Oh. Dept. of Ag. when they open later today. If Gary Hill is not in, I'll talk to a director or someone from legal.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  7. #7
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    I found the email for Gary Hill, Mr. Vartorella's boss.

    My email to Chief Hill:


    Dear Chief Hill-

    On August 15, 2013, a friend of mine received a call from Michael Vartorella of your office.

    The call was in reference to a letter sent to the Morrow County Agriculture Society regarding "No Guns" signs improperly posted at the entrances to the fairgrounds. These signs should be posted on buildings that are not primarily restrooms, shelters or parking facilities. My friend and his wife prefer to carry their legally owned handguns openly, as do I.

    Dan Rogers, president of the Morrow County Agricultural Society and of their Fair Board, apparently contacted Mr. Vartorella regarding this issue. Mr. Vartorella contacted my friend by phone. Here is the story that I was told by my friend:

    --------------------------------------------
    Aug 15th
    I received a call from:

    Michael A. Vartorella
    Chief Inspector
    Assistant Division Chief
    Amusement Ride Safety.
    Director of Fairs

    He stated that he had not yet run me through the DHS database yet, but that the M. Cty. Fair Board was concerned with some "extremist" coming down from Cleveland to "their" fair. He stated that he thinks the signs are improper, but that I should just carry concealed. I responded that my wife and I are still waiting on our CHLs, and would not generally choose to carry that way (discreetly) regardless... He mentioned "putting a target on your back" at least 8 times... he then said that the Fair Board was also contacting the Ohio AGs office...
    --------------------------------------------

    The reason I am contacting you today, Chief Hill, is to find out why a former CPD SWAT officer of high caliber such as yourself would allow your staff to utilize cheap intimidation tactics and loose threats UNDER COLOR OF LAW against a law-abiding private citizen.

    To what degree is your department responsible for firearms rules on fairground property? If it is not, why did Mr. Vartorella make that call and was it approved by you, a director of your agency or your legal department?

    If this call was not authorized official business of the Ohio Department of Agriculture, what actions, if any, will be taken?

    Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I can put you in touch with my friend.

    Thank you.

    It's 57 miles to the fairgrounds, I've got a full bottle of Diet Mountain Dew, half a bag of chips, it's dark and I'm wearing sunglasses...
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  8. #8
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Is it just me or did I count that the sheriff, the prosecutor and even the ethically-challenged Ride Inspector all say they believed the Morrow County fairgrounds "No Guns" postings were improper?

    http://www.morrowcountyfair.org

    The "Sr. Fair Book" lists the rules of the fair.

    Rule number 40 is the bad one.
    Last edited by MyWifeSaidYes; 08-16-2013 at 02:59 AM.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    I have a thread going over in OFCC's 9.68 compliance thread, but I wanted to get some input from the Open Carry crowd, of which I consider myself one of. I will try to give a concise overview of events that have transpired up to now.

    Aug. 2
    I sent a message to the Morrow County Fair Board, stating that I believed the signs posted "No Carry" at the fair were illegal.

    Aug. 13
    I placed a call to follow up with the fair board, and was given the number for Dan Rogers, President of the Morrow County Fair Board. I called Mr. Rogers, and stated that my wife and I planned on attending, and we WOULD be open carrying, as that is the law. I also stated that my emails to him and others were all public record, and could show that the relevant laws and court decisions WERE known to them ahead of time, and that any harassment could lead to a 1984 federal civil rights lawsuit. He told me NOT to threaten him. He said that he was a CHL holder, but he feels the signs are okay, and referred me to the Morrow County Prosecutor and Sheriff.

    I then spoke with Mr. Charles Howland, the Morrow County Prosecutor. Mr. Howland stated that he does NOT represent the Fair Board, but that his understanding of the law showed that the fair could NOT post the open areas of the fair, but he wasn't sure about the buildings. (In Ohio, public buildings ARE forbidden, excepting dedicated restroom, open air pavilions, and parking garages.)

    I sent a version of My Wife Said Yes' letter to the fair board:

    We are a group of concerned citizens here in Ross County. It has come to our attention that the parking lots and entrances to the Ross County Fairgrounds are posted with “No Gun” signs in clear violation of Ohio Revised Code 9.68.

    In response to this discovery, one of our members contacted the Sheriff to discuss the issue. The Sheriff stated that the Ross County Agricultural Society leases the fairgrounds from Ross County for $1 per year and considers itself to be a private organization, thereby allowing it to post the fairgrounds as a No Gun Zone. After contacting Ohioans for Concealed Carry and doing a little research, we discovered that this is not correct. The Ohio Attorney General has determined in Ohio Attorney General Opinion 88-034 that Agricultural Societies are political subdivisions. Furthermore, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled in Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming (2000), 89 Ohio St. 3d 551 that Agricultural Societies are political subdivisions. Political subdivisions can NOT violate Ohio’s Concealed Carry Law and specifically ORC 9.68. We have enclosed the Attorney General’s Opinion 88-034 and the Supreme Court Case “Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming (2000), 89 Ohio St. 3d 551” for your review.

    Therefore, we request that you promptly remove the “No Gun” signs at the entrances to the parking lots and entrances to the fair itself. It is our hope that we can resolve this issue amicably and our only goal is to have the signs removed in accordance with the law.

    Aug. 14th
    I received the following e-mail from Mr. Rogers in reply:

    The Morrow County Sherriff will be in contact with you on this issue.

    A copy of your e mail will be forwarded to the Ohio Attorney General’s Office.

    Dan Rogers, Morrow County Agricultural Society

    This reply was also cced to Sheriff Brenneman.

    I spoke with Sheriff Brenneman, and he stated that he has not had enough time to look into all of the details as of yet, as he is VERY busy with the NASCAR Nationwide Series race at Mid-Ohio this weekend. He told me he would be in touch at the beginning of next week.

    Aug 15th
    I received a call from:

    Michael A. Vartorella
    Chief Inspector
    Assistant Division Chief
    Amusement Ride Safety.
    Director of Fairs

    He stated that he had not yet run me through the DHS database yet, but that the M. Cty. Fair Board was concerned with some "extremist" coming down from Cleveland to "their" fair. He stated that he thinks the signs are improper, but that I should just carry concealed. I responded that my wife and I are still waiting on our CHLs, and would not generally choose to carry that way (discreetly) regardless... He mentioned "putting a target on your back" at least 8 times... he then said that the Fair Board was also contacting the Ohio AGs office...

    MWSY, my wife and I were planning on attending the fair... but I am beginning to feel concern for the response we may receive.. Any comments or feedback?
    Be careful the government may start to label you a "sovereign citizen" for exercising your rights.

    Best regards

    CCJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    Is it just me or did I count that the sheriff, the prosecutor and even the ethically-challenged Ride Inspector all say they believed the Morrow County fairgrounds "No Guns" postings were improper?

    http://www.morrowcountyfair.org

    The "Sr. Fair Book" lists the rules of the fair.

    Rule number 40 is the bad one.
    Rule 40 is an outright LIE... where do they see a law that says they HAVE to post?!?!?

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    Rule 40 is an outright LIE... where do they see a law that says they HAVE to post?!?!?
    http://www.morrowcountyfair.org/uplo...rbook13web.pdf

    Rule 40 is valid.

    But, the rule does not apply to you. Unless you become a member or exhibitor of the Morrow County Agricultural Society.
    Morrow County Agricultural Society Membership
    Any resident of Morrow County, eighteen (18) years of age or over may become a member of the Morrow County Agricultural Society. Membership Certificates are $3.00 each. Members may run for a Directors position and vote at the Annual Election. Certificates may be purchased at the Secretary's Office beginning December 15, 2012.
    MEMBERSHIP CERTIFICATES DO NOT INCLUDE ADMISSION TO THE FAIR.
    To whom are the rules speaking?

    To those “persons” who are members or exhibitors of the Morrow County Agricultural Society.

    RULE 5. All persons, firms, organizations, committees, groups, and companies granted exhibition space for the Morrow County Fair shall abide by rules and regulations of the Morrow County Agricultural Society and the Ohio Department of Agriculture...
    Nowhere in the Morrow County Agricultural Society's Constitution/Regulations/Rules say that the Constitution/Regulations/Rules apply to fair goers, those purchasing an admission ticket.

    How do we know that the Constitution/Regulations/Rules do not apply to the general public? At the end of the rules it says:

    ANY VIOLATION OF THESE PUBLISHED RULES BY EXHIBITORS OR CONCESSIONAIRES WILL RESULT IN FORFEITURE OF ANY AND ALL PREMIUMS AND PRIVILEGES.
    The prosecutor and sheriff are blowing smoke.

    The Ohio Supreme Court has spoken. Ohio Law has spoken.

    The posted signs do not apply to the general public.

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    COL, the prosecutor and sheriff are saying the signs are not proper... (well, the sheriff says he THINKS they are, but he will do more research after NASCAR at Mid-Ohio this weekend.) Its the fair board that is blowing smoke...

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    COL, the prosecutor and sheriff are saying the signs are not proper... (well, the sheriff says he THINKS they are, but he will do more research after NASCAR at Mid-Ohio this weekend.) Its the fair board that is blowing smoke...
    I stand corrected.
    You did not comment on my post relating to Rule 40, not that you have to. Nor do I expect you to.

    My point is "no person" and "all person" are only those "persons" the board has control over. And that ain't you and me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I stand corrected.
    You did not comment on my post relating to Rule 40, not that you have to. Nor do I expect you to.

    My point is "no person" and "all person" are only those "persons" the board has control over. And that ain't you and me.
    Rule 40 states, "Pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person...". The ORC has no bearing here. The rule is wrong.
    The only people who should fear, good guys with guns, are bad guys...criminals and politicians included.
    No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suckerspawn View Post
    Rule 40 states, "Pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person...". The ORC has no bearing here. The rule is wrong.
    Yes, the rule is not written correctly. But, since the rule does not apply to me I could care less. If you are a member or exhibitor then you should care and object. Of course the Society could revoke your membership or cancel exhibitor privileges.

    Your are worrying about a rule that has no bearing on you. The ORC and Ohio Supreme Court made it clear what the rules are.

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    MWSY is at the fairgrounds...

    I'm sure he will provide a better update, but he was approached by a Captain of Mt. Gilead Police, whom he had already spoken with earlier. (The Chief is out of town until Monday) Seems to be more run-around going on, but the Captain says the signs (which MWSY got pics of, hope he posts them) only say no firearms unless otherwise authorized by law. We all know that OPEN carry is not authorized by law, just as it is not UNauthorized by law... Regardless, MWSY, my wife and kids and I are all going to the fair on Monday the 26th, no matter HOW this turns out...

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    Morrow County Fair Board (Mt. Gilead) thinks I am a "radical troublemaker"

    Monday, the 26th? Hallelujah, I'm free that day. Most of the events scheduled recently have conflicted with my work schedule.

    So, anyone else up for OCDO Day at the Fair? This is near Columbus, right? If so, I'd love to do a roller coaster while armed.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Morrow County Fair, Mt. Gilead, OH... 195 S Main St, Mt Gilead, OH 43338... about an hour and 50 min from you, Eye...

  19. #19
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Someone that believes in and stands up for thier rights as outlined by the US Constitution is now labeled and.....EXTRIMIST and RADICAL?

    I remember when we were called AMERICANS......

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Monday, the 26th? Hallelujah, I'm free that day. Most of the events scheduled recently have conflicted with my work schedule.

    So, anyone else up for OCDO Day at the Fair? This is near Columbus, right? If so, I'd love to do a roller coaster while armed.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    An armed Gorrila riding a roller coaster would be worth the price of admission....lol

  21. #21
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    Morrow County Fair Board (Mt. Gilead) thinks I am a "radical troublemaker"

    In today's America, it IS extreme to advocate for Liberty. Doesn't make it wrong, just extreme.

    I am an extremist.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    An armed Gorrila riding a roller coaster would be worth the price of admission....lol
    I hope he doesn't drop his carrot on someone's head while riding!

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    I would be up for taking the family out to the fair for some greasy deep fried butter

    If there is a interest in doing a open carry day in show of support it may be a good idea to ship off a e-mail to the neocarry boys.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy bilt View Post
    I would be up for taking the family out to the fair for some greasy deep fried butter

    If there is a interest in doing a open carry day in show of support it may be a good idea to ship off a e-mail to the neocarry boys.
    BriKuz's family and I will be there on 8/26. I won't be able to bring my family as school starts up next week for both my kids and my wife.


    I'll post later this evening about my trip to the Morrow County fairgrounds and how all the people I needed to see are on vacation, out for the weekend or otherwise 'busy'.

    The Captain was okay with me interrupting his lunch, but he was none too pleased about having to leave the municipal building and drive a very short distance to the fair office and take a report from the ladies I "alarmed".

    THAT'S what I get for TELLING THEM I would be walking around the fairgrounds?

    Ha!

    Later.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    An armed Gorrila riding a roller coaster would be worth the price of admission....lol
    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    I hope he doesn't drop his carrot on someone's head while riding!
    There will be small fee for pictures of said gorilla.

    The carrot is unlit, so fear not. I haven't lit my carrot in almost 15 years.

    It looks like folks in Ohio like to get armed, get together, and get around afoot. I'm glad I moved here.

    So, Bri, you seem to have become the defacto ringleader. I'm up for whatever.

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