Self Defense Scenario Question

Esanders2008 · Aug 15, 2013

Here is the scenario:

It is late at night and you have to go to the ATM (this actually happens to me a lot because of my job). As you are finishing your transaction, a man starts walking toward you, saying "Hey I need to ask you something." You say, "I don't want to talk," but the man continues walking toward you. You tell him in a firm, clear, and loud voice to stop. He continues to slowly make his way toward you while going on about how he needs to talk to you. You pull your gun and again order him to stop. Assuming the guy isn't stupid, he runs away.

What do you do now? (Also, what if this situation occurs in broad daylight, in a shopping center with people around? The last thing I want is to either shoot someone who is just stupid or wants to sell his product, and I also don't want to look like the BG if I do have to engage.)

or B) he IS stupid and continues his approach, and you shoot him.

What do you do then?

I know the basics of what to do after a defensive shooting. I am more concerned with what to do if you DON'T pull the trigger.

If anyone is interested, on YouTube there is a series call "First Person Defender", and that is what got me thinking about this.

skidmark · Aug 15, 2013

You run like hell, all the while hoping the ATM security camera did not catch your face as you committed attempted murder, and that he does not tell the cops to check the ATM records to find out who used it just before that person shot him. (Might try claiming you gave some bum permission to use your card and are waiting for him to bring the card back to you. Probably won't work, but you can try.)

The guy is advancing towards you, circling - which means he is probably trying to cut off a line of withdrawal (I hate calling it a "line of retreat"). All he has done so far is speak to you - and none of the words he used would meet any definition of a threat, let alone a threat of violence or the proverbial threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

Tell him stop in that "firm, clear voice." Make the universal "stop" hand gesture. Possibly say something about not wanting to hurt him if he does not stop - but there is some risk in making threatening statements.

He is slowly advancing towards you, which means he has not yet cut off your line of withdrawal - so get off the "X" and start withdrawing. Be sure to look around as much as you can to prevent yourself from being blindsided by some possible partner. While you are withdrawing, figure out where places of safety might be - solid obstacles you might put between yourself and the advancing man. Watch out for corners, and for places with deep shadows, and stay away from them.

Then, after following this advice either completely or partly, explain why the %#$* you want to shoot someone.

stay safe.

peter nap · Aug 15, 2013

skidmark said:
You run like hell, all the while hoping the ATM security camera did not catch your face as you committed attempted murder, and that he does not tell the cops to check the ATM records to find out who used it just before that person shot him. (Might try claiming you gave some bum permission to use your card and are waiting for him to bring the card back to you. Probably won't work, but you can try.)

The guy is advancing towards you, circling - which means he is probably trying to cut off a line of withdrawal (I hate calling it a "line of retreat"). All he has done so far is speak to you - and none of the words he used would meet any definition of a threat, let alone a threat of violence or the proverbial threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

Tell him stop in that "firm, clear voice." Make the universal "stop" hand gesture. Possibly say something about not wanting to hurt him if he does not stop - but there is some risk in making threatening statements.

He is slowly advancing towards you, which means he has not yet cut off your line of withdrawal - so get off the "X" and start withdrawing. Be sure to look around as much as you can to prevent yourself from being blindsided by some possible partner. While you are withdrawing, figure out where places of safety might be - solid obstacles you might put between yourself and the advancing man. Watch out for corners, and for places with deep shadows, and stay away from them.

Then, after following this advice either completely or partly, explain why the %#$* you want to shoot someone.

stay safe.

Yep!

Eddy, despite some of the advice you get here and the extremely poor advice by gun writers...walking up to someone isn't illegal. Brandishing and or shooting without cause is.

Esanders2008 · Aug 15, 2013

I thought the scenario as presented seemed a little fishy. I will post a link when I get off work tonight. The scenario they showed was different, as it took place on a trail, not at an ATM.

davidmcbeth · Aug 15, 2013

Re-deposit the money? After all, he ran away .. its an option ..

And then do the cycle over and over and over ..

half_life1052 · Aug 15, 2013

Maybe it is simpler than that

What would you do if you didn't have the gun? Put him at your 3 or 9 o'clock and try to circle away from him? If he moves to intercept make a break for it? Only when trapped would you escalate?

The bottom line is the gun doesn't change the equation as to when to escalate levels of force. A very old korean man once taught me that the best defense was "don't be there". He was a very interesting teacher.

Grapeshot · Aug 15, 2013

I have heard of an ol' timer, that would reach to the small of his back with non-dominate hand (where there was no gun) and in a commanding voice say, "Don't come any closer - back off!" Think he was a bit of a country boy

Citizen · Aug 15, 2013

Social people, decent people, do not want to alarm others. If you were approaching someone, say to ask directions or something, and they commanded you to "Stop! Leave me alone! Do not approach any closer!", would you continue walking toward them? You might be surprised. You might be perplexed. But, you would stop, not because it was commanded, but simply because you could tell you had caused an unpleasant reaction for the other person.

Anybody who continues to approach after those commands clearly intends something against your interests, especially after dark. And, super-especially if you're at an ATM or just walked away from it.

Regarding drawing your gun or reaching behind your back, possibly creating legal jeopardy--sometimes life just hands you tough choices and you have to work with what you have.

One thought does occur to me. You could clearly announce your intention to defend yourself without mentioning a weapon.

Also, I'm a big fan of "show me your hands."

I've used the "stop! don't approach me" command three times in the last, oh, four or five years. On one occasion, the fella approaching took his hands out of his pockets just as I was about to give the stop command. So, I gave the stop command, and omitted demanding to see his hands because although after dark there was enough light to see his hands were empty.

At some point, you have to decide whether to draw and come to ready. If the guy kept coming and wouldn't show his hands, and I was cornered or couldn't retreat, I'd probably unsnap the retention and have a hand on the holstered gun as he crossed that 21' line. Continuing to command stop, leave me alone, show me your hands at the top of my voice so every witness within half a mile could hear it.

And, after it was over, I'd be sure I was the first to call the police and report an attempted robbery. Its a tough choice--risk admitting that I brandished defensively, or let him report me for brandishing offensively.

No easy choice here.

Esanders2008 · Aug 15, 2013

Citizen said:
Social people, decent people, do not want to alarm others. If you were approaching someone, say to ask directions or something, and they commanded you to "Stop! Leave me alone! Do not approach any closer!", would you continue walking toward them? You might be surprised. You might be perplexed. But, you would stop, not because it was commanded, but simply because you could tell you had caused an unpleasant reaction for the other person.

Anybody who continues to approach after those commands clearly intends something against your interests, especially after dark. And, super-especially if you're at an ATM or just walked away from it.

Regarding drawing your gun or reaching behind your back, possibly creating legal jeopardy--sometimes life just hands you tough choices and you have to work with what you have.

One thought does occur to me. You could clearly announce your intention to defend yourself without mentioning a weapon.

Also, I'm a big fan of "show me your hands."

I've used the "stop! don't approach me" command three times in the last, oh, four or five years. On one occasion, the fella approaching took his hands out of his pockets just as I was about to give the stop command. So, I gave the stop command, and omitted demanding to see his hands because although after dark there was enough light to see his hands were empty.

At some point, you have to decide whether to draw and come to ready. If the guy kept coming and wouldn't show his hands, and I was cornered or couldn't retreat, I'd probably unsnap the retention and have a hand on the holstered gun as he crossed that 21' line. Continuing to command stop, leave me alone, show me your hands at the top of my voice so every witness within half a mile could hear it.

And, after it was over, I'd be sure I was the first to call the police and report an attempted robbery. Its a tough choice--risk admitting that I brandished defensively, or let him report me for brandishing offensively.

No easy choice here.

I think this is the best articulated response yet.

And, as promised, here is the link to the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnSTW7Ar44

Grapeshot · Aug 15, 2013

Esanders2008 said:
--snipped--

And, as promised, here is the link to the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnSTW7Ar44

Think the first mistake that the "victim" made was not moving out of the line of attack - held his ground.

Esanders2008 · Aug 15, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Think the first mistake that the "victim" made was not moving out of the line of attack - held his ground.

are you referring to the first or second scenario?

Grapeshot · Aug 15, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Think the first mistake that the "victim" made was not moving out of the line of attack - held his ground.

Esanders2008 said:
are you referring to the first or second scenario?

The only one I saw on the link was the knife attack.

Esanders2008 · Aug 15, 2013

At the end of each video, they do a "redo" of the scene, where they change a few details

Marco · Aug 16, 2013

In this day why anyone would use a walk up atm that isn't inside a business etc...is beyond me.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Having a less than lethal option gives you options.

Broken jaw takes 3-4 weeks to heal , ego 3-4 days, taking a life is forever... hit cancel on the atm and walk cautiously away, all the while making sure you speak loud and clear enough for the agggressor and your dvr to hear your commands of stay away etc.....

skidmark · Aug 16, 2013

Esanders2008 said:
....

And, as promised, here is the link to the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnSTW7Ar44

re: guy walking down a trail in the woods -

The trainee said he saw the guy approaching him had a knife in his hand, but did not respond to that threat until the attack was actually launched. Knife in hand = imminent threat.

Yes, the Teuller "Drill" says at 21 feet the BG can be on you before you can draw and shoot. But the imminent threat exists out past 21 feet - that distance is just the point at which you are more than likely going to walk away very hurt, if you can walk away at all.

While the Code of Virginia does not provide for the defensive display of a handgun as a defense to anything, a case might be made that overcomes the misapprehension that any "threat" outside the magic 21-foot circle is not imminent and is not deadly. Even going with some situation where a security camera is present and records your first defensive move starting while the aggressor is more than 21 feet away, the deadly nature of the threat can be established.

21 feet is too close. 50 yards away is obviously too far. 50 feet might be reasonable, depending on a host of variables.

But getting back to the video - the trainee did nothing until the attack was launched, even though the video narrative says he was aware of the threat before the BG was on top of him.

Keeping everybody outside a 50-foot circle probably will not work in downtown Norfolk, even if you see the person has something thatb is/could be a weapon. But it would have been easy-peasy out on that trail.

stay safe.

OC for ME · Aug 16, 2013

What is the legal size of your personal bubble in VA? Once "they" pierce your bubble drop them like a bad habit?

Seriously, I would have looked at the dude and said "Hey, ya got 20 bucks, I need some gas to get to work, first day on the job, and the ATM says I'm a little short this week."

skidmark · Aug 16, 2013

OC for ME said:
What is the legal size of your personal bubble in VA? Once "they" pierce your bubble drop them like a bad habit?

Seriously, I would have looked at the dude and said "Hey, ya got 20 bucks, I need some gas to get to work, first day on the job, and the ATM says I'm a little short this week."

My personal bubble? Or some theoretical personal bubble as defined by statute or case law? Mine flexes depending on a whole lot of thinjgs. I don't think trying to create anything from case law would be worth the time, effort, and cost.

Interrupting the other guy's OODA loop (go look it up) is a good tactic.

stay safe.

OC for ME · Aug 16, 2013

I will reiterate.

What is the legal size of your personal bubble in VA? [for the ocularly challenged]

JamesCanby · Aug 16, 2013

OC for ME said:
I will reiterate.

What is the legal size of your personal bubble in VA? [for the ocularly challenged]

Being situational, being subject to personal preferences and experiences, and given that there is no legal definition, the question is impossible to answer.

Speaking non-legally (since there is no legal definition), the personal bubble will vary based on where I am, who I am with, how I am armed, who else is around me and what those others are doing.

The 21-foot "bubble" scenario is often quoted as the minimum self-defense distance, but we often find ourselves among others that are closer to us than 21 feet, where situational awareness must be heightened. In other situations, that minimum distance must expand based on a good OODA loop analysis.

OC for ME · Aug 16, 2013

Thanks.

Here in Fly Over Country, my personal bubble is pierced when I get touched, unwantingly that is. Until then I am compelled by my law abidingness to wait and watch for obvious signs of imminent physical harm that would very likely justify my use of lethal force to prevent my personal bubble from being pierced. VA may be different than MO.

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