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McGinn, WA CeaseFire to launch 'Gun Free Zone' program

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
No this is not for "Private Property", but for business. Also, there are no property rights in the US

Is a business not private property in the state of Washington?

Please don't confuse the issue with non-applicable absolute statements like "there are no property rights in the US." This is not the thread for whatever point you are trying to make with that.
 
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MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
For those who actually see the signs, please use the Friend or Foe site. I have found this a good way to check an area before I travel.

http://friendorfoe.us/

Welcome to the Friend or Foe web site. This site serves the gun owner community by listing the experiences people have while out and about carrying a firearm for self protection. Individuals across the country use the site to share experiences visiting various places of business for the benefit of the entire gun owner community. Gun owners who Open Carry are especially encouraged to share their experiences as they are obviously more inclined to get a genuine feel for whether gun owners are welcome at the establishment. Those who prefer to carry concealed can help by adding ratings for businesses that they know are friendly or unfriendly, and also by adding ratings for places that are posted with “no guns” or “no weapons” signage.
 

tannerwaterbury

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
269
Location
Kelso, Washington, USA
I am going to sit here and laugh my ass off when these places get robbed. Seriously, what better way to announce your vulnerable than to put a big sign saying "PROUD GUN FREE ZONE!" You're literally asking to be robbed in that case!
 

Mr Birdman

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
209
Location
United States
signs.

I am going to sit here and laugh my ass off when these places get robbed. Seriously, what better way to announce your vulnerable than to put a big sign saying "PROUD GUN FREE ZONE!" You're literally asking to be robbed in that case!

Every one who encounters one of those gun free signs should post this sign right be side it so every one knows what exactly their sign means.

ATTENTION!

ROBBERS, RAPISTS
AND MURDERERS

THE MANAGEMENT OF THIS ESTABLISHMENT PROHIBITS TRAINED, LICENSED, LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS FROM CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS ON THE PREMISES.

THIS IS A
SELF-DEFENSE-FREE
ZONE!!!
HOWEVER, SINCE YOU ARE ALREADY CONTEMPLATING THE COMMISSION OF A CRIMINAL ACTS, THIS PROHIBITION
DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.

NO ONE WITHIN THIS ESTABLISHMENT IS ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY RESIST YOU. YOU MAY ROB, RAPE OR KILL
ANYONE YOU FIND ON THESE PREMISES WITH OUT FEAR OF BEING INJURED OR KILLED IN SELF DEFENSE!!!


With mgmt permission first of course!!!:lol::lol:
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
Latest list of unarmed victim zones:
Participating Businesses
Barboza
Big Marios
Bitterroot
Brenthave
Bus Stop Espresso.
Cafe Paloma
Cafe Racer
Century Ballroom
Cupcake Royale
Elliott Bay Books.
Fish Fry
Fredd'ys Junion
Havana
Hot Cakes
Lindas
Lost Lake
Moe Bar
Neumo's
Oddfellows
Pies and Pints <- NOTE BY JOHN PIERCE 08/21: Washington Ceasefire contacted me to say that Pies and Pints are not currently participating in the project
Quinn's
Silver Platters
Smith
Sweatbox Yoga
The Saint
Totokaelo
Valley of Roses.
Zoe
 
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Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
I'm not willing to go that far until I see case law.

Rcw 9A.52.090



This is part of a defense to being charged with trespass. If did not comply with all entry conditions then have you entered unlawfully? If the business owner communicates to you via sign that your gun is not welcome then I think entering with your gun is a textbook definition of trespass since you disregarded lawful conditions imposed on access to said property.

Now it's unlikely a DA will ever charge that. Still just because we don't have a specific law empowering signs, the sign still would put a reasonable person on notice that the behavior in question is prohibited on their premises.

Why would you want to spend money at such a place anyway?

So, your premise is that I have to read every inch of an entryway before I can enter a business?

If I see a big sign placed at my eye level on the door and other places then, I will not offer the business my money.
 

SigPacker

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
116
Location
, ,
List of Facebook pages...

Here's the list facebook pages of businesses who have signed up for the "victims have been disarmed for criminals convenience" sticker.

Feel free to drop them a little note letting them know they won't be patronized, we can say it all we want on the forums, but send them a nice message on their ratings post your thoughts on their page

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cafe-Racer/343554140401

https://www.facebook.com/thebarboza

https://www.facebook.com/BigMariosPizza

https://www.facebook.com/BitterrootSeattle

https://www.facebook.com/brenthavennews

https://www.facebook.com/BusStopEspresso

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cafe-Paloma/369387020781

https://www.facebook.com/centuryballroom

https://www.facebook.com/CupcakeRoyale

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Elliott-Bay-Book-Company/54903244636

https://www.facebook.com/pikestreetfishfry

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Havana-Social-Club/115015952055?rf=111560588884871

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hot-Cakes/10150155004285173

https://www.facebook.com/Lindastavernseattle

https://www.facebook.com/LostLakeCafe

https://www.facebook.com/MoeBarSeattle

https://www.facebook.com/neumos

https://www.facebook.com/Oddfellowscafe

https://www.facebook.com/Pies.Pints <- NOTE BY JOHN PIERCE 08/21: Washington Ceasefire contacted me to say that Pies and Pints are not currently participating in the project

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Quinns/116799065570

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Silver-Platters/72682115218

https://www.facebook.com/Smithseattle

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-SweatBox/127337390697490?rf=120897577921492

https://www.facebook.com/TheSaintSocial

https://www.facebook.com/Totokaelo

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Valley-Of-Roses-Boutique/110226262398108

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Restaurant-Zoe/49304592282
 
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tombrewster421

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,326
Location
Roy, WA
Latest list of unarmed victim zones:
Participating Businesses
Barboza
Big Marios
Bitterroot
Brenthave
Bus Stop Espresso.
Cafe Paloma
Cafe Racer
Century Ballroom
Cupcake Royale
Elliott Bay Books.
Fish Fry
Fredd'ys Junion
Havana
Hot Cakes
Lindas
Lost Lake
Moe Bar
Neumo's
Oddfellows
Pies and Pints.
Quinn's
Silver Platters
Smith
Sweatbox Yoga
The Saint
Totokaelo
Valley of Roses.
Zoe

The only place on the list I've ever been to is Cupcake Royale. I wonder if they'll give my money back. Oh well, my wife makes better cakes anyway.;)
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Perhaps some direct action is in order? Go to some of these businesses, create big orders, then say "Oh wait. You ban guns? I can't shop here, in good conscience."

Take up as much store employee time as possible. Really inconvenience them. The time for being respectful is over. It doesn't work.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Perhaps some direct action is in order? Go to some of these businesses, create big orders, then say "Oh wait. You ban guns? I can't shop here, in good conscience."

Take up as much store employee time as possible. Really inconvenience them. ...

This. And if done out of ignorance of their policy until the last moment, it can be done quite respectfully. After all, we are actually supposed to leave immediately when trespassed and not even take the time to check out and pay for our selections at other places, so treat this the same way. If we are going to be treated like trespassed thugs, well, we'll take up their time the same way.

So here's a question. If the place is a restaurant, does not the price of the meal include the time to sit and enjoy it peacefully? If we are denied the latter, should the meal be paid for? I would argue no, so I wonder how the law would treat the issue.
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
Perhaps some direct action is in order? Go to some of these businesses, create big orders, then say "Oh wait. You ban guns? I can't shop here, in good conscience."

Take up as much store employee time as possible. Really inconvenience them. The time for being respectful is over. It doesn't work.

That will only help to make the anti's even more so. Go to their competition, and let them know why you are doing business with them instead.
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
So, what force of law does such signage have in Washington exactly?

If you carry despite such a sign, can police arrest you for trespass immediately, or only after you refuse to leave when an employee tells you to?

As I understand the law, these signs change nothing.

Stuff varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, becase in addition to case law you also have filing standards. Like in my jurisdiction, despite the fact that Assault on a LEO is a felony (Assault III), FILING STANDARDS for our county prosecutors (all felony cases go to county Prosecutors. City handles misdemeanors except for county cops) is a bit more - need disabling injury, past convictions for assault on a PO, etc.

I can tell you in my misdemeanor court (trespassing is either a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor depending), they will not file trespass charges if you violate a term of entry.

Iow, store says "shirts required" (similar to no firearms... a private property setting the rules to be served) and you walk in w/o a shirt, that in of itself is not going to get you arrested for trespassing. Store owner tells you to leave. You say "NO". He calls police. We will not arrest you for tresspass. Acting as agent of the store owner we tell you to leave or you will be arrested for trespasing. If you THEN refuse, you will get arrested (or cited) for trespassing.

I've gone to hundreds of trespassing type cases and it always works that way.

The store can also formally trespass you via notice, in other words at the time we eject you from the store (or the time you are getting arrested), you will be issued a trespass notice. The official notice, per the store personnel (we are merely acting as agents for them) puts you on notice that if you return within X years (it's on the form. Usually 1 yr), you will be arrested for trespassing. Even if you leave before the cops get there, if the guy positively ID's you (is sure it's you) you can be cited if not present, if you've been issued a trespass notice.

The guy I arrested last week started out as a terry for trespassing. He ended up having felony warrants, assaulted my partner, foot pursuit bla bla... it was a terry because the call came in that per the storeowner the person had been trespassed from the property previously and was thus trespassing. He said it was actually a condition of release from the judge, after "robbing" the store (turned out to be burglary not robbery). I could confirm none of this while enroute, but what he told dispatchers and willing to give his name etc means him reporting this stuff to us rose to the level of RAS. I could detain the male and then investigate further to find out if the trespass notice (whether a judge condition of release or a formal trespass notice) was still in effect AND he was the person trespassed.

To make a long story short, it turns out he WAS the person indicated but there was no trespass condition of release ANY MORE (it was a juvenile conviction and he had already completed his "community custody" (kind of like parole) thus there was no trespass notice/condition in effect.

However, he did have a felony warrant for Vehicular Assault and of course will also be charged for the Assault on a PO.

It was what the storeowner told us (dispatch) that gave me RAS. It turned out he WASN'T committing the crime that was reported, but that's irrelevant to the validity of the stop, since the specifics given (dress, location etc.) and the nonanonymous witness etc. gave me plenty of RAS to detain and investigate further.

And of course the fact that we can detain per RAS means that crimes like this can be investigated. It wasn't PC so I couldn't arrest and I wasn't going to walk into the store and speak to the storeowner to confirm if they had a notice or to get the guy's name so I could check with the courts on the condition of relase, since I couldn't keep an eye on the suspect AND do that. He would have ample opportunity to see my police car arrive and then leave before I had PC. Terry lets me freeze the scene and detain so I can investigate further without the suspect walking off, etc. Had to wait for backup so he could contact the store owner. Terry v. Ohio gave me the authoritah8 to detain him and investigate further to see if htere was PC or not.

Once I ran his name (which if he refused to give me I could have gotten from my laptop once I knew some incident particulars, since it was in our report database), he had felony warrant, so AT THAT POINT it went from RAS to PC

Also shows you what a moron some people are. he knew he had a warrant and yet he returned to the scene he had burglarized a few years earlier and hung out at one of their picnic benches (yes, the gas station had picnic bench outside). An intelligent person wouldn't go anywhere near that establishment since he could be recognized as a previous burglar and it was certainly a possibility the cops would be called on him etc.

If you are formally trespassed from a store and then steal a $1 stick of bubble gum, it is a burglary not a trespass and theft since you UNLAWFULLY entered (because you were trespassed and thus not allowed on property) and then you committed a crime within. I've arrested a few times for that.

Of course the prosecutor will always let it be pled down,. but technically it's a burglary (in some states, if they can prove you had the intent to steal before you entered, it is also burglary not shoplift iirc but not in my state)

Despite the fact that in my juridiction we won't arrest for trespassing based on the warning given prior to our arrival, I would not recommend standing your ground if ordered to leave. If they don't want you there, turning around and walking out is the best policy. Contrary to what others have said, they are not violating our constitutional (state or federal) RKBA rights in refusing to serve open carriers, any more than they are violting the first amendment by refusing to serve somebody that is wearing a "F*CK BUS" t-shirt, wearing of the latter being constitutionally protected, but that does not mean the store can't have a dress code that prohibits swear words on t's etc.
 
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PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
So, your premise is that I have to read every inch of an entryway before I can enter a business?

If I see a big sign placed at my eye level on the door and other places then, I will not offer the business my money.

I can tell you his premise is INCONSISTENT with filing standards in my jurisdiction and several others around my area. In no case have I ever seen somebody cited or arrested for violating one of those terms they have put on their door or wherever. Those signs as a deterrent for many who would be violating them (iow they wont enter once they see the sign), and if they do violate them, it means the store can trespass them (call the police if they won't leave too and then formally trespass them) WITHOUT running into the argument they are discriminating against a protected class.

Iow, assume the store says "no guns allowed" and a black guy walks in and is told to leave. If the guy wants to make a (bogus in this case) claim that it was his race, not the carrying of hte gun which was why they told him to leave, the store can point to their sign and have a bulletproof defense of that accusation.

It doesn't mean every condition has to be on a sign. Iow, a lot of places will refuse to serve you w/o a shirt (and for all I know, for restaurants, it may even be a code violation for them to allow shirtless peopple.. but it's certainly not a code violation in a toy store), despite the fact they don't specifically mention it on a sign and that's fine.

The advantage of the notices via sign is 1) the deterrent effect 2) the bulletproof defense if they get accused of racial, sexual etc. discrimination in their choice to trespass the person
 

Contrarian

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
259
Location
Seattle,WA, , USA
Mike McGone,er McGinn and 'gun-buster signs'...

On the Seattle Times website, regarding this story, I posted the following:

"Perhaps the alternate view should be taken - a sticker that says "Lawful carry encouraged" with a green-circled handgun."




Why can't they do as Starbucks does and just follow the law?
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Getting a little push back.

Pies & Pints Firstly, we haven't participated in any anti-gun or gun-ownership legislation or petition in anyway, though we have been asked to. Secondly, guns are not allowed in any place in King County that serves alcohol, which includes us. And also, gun ownership is a choice. Being black, or gay is not. Gun owners are not banned from our establishment, guns are, by law, not allowed in our establishment. And for the record, bigotry, and prejudice are not welcome here either. If you'd like to privately let us know where you incorrectly heard that we have any involvement with whatever it is you are referring to, we'll correct any misinformation. Thanks.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
The gov't can especially force business to do this if they want - they are regulated by the state, they can put what ever pressure they want to insure that businesses do what the state wants them to do.

Another reason for RKBAers to start pushing for carry as a civil right...

Businesses will end up being puppets of the state in this respect.
 
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Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Stuff varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, becase in addition to case law you also have filing standards. Like in my jurisdiction, despite the fact that Assault on a LEO is a felony (Assault III), FILING STANDARDS for our county prosecutors (all felony cases go to county Prosecutors. City handles misdemeanors except for county cops) is a bit more - need disabling injury, past convictions for assault on a PO, etc.

I can tell you in my misdemeanor court (trespassing is either a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor depending), they will not file trespass charges if you violate a term of entry.

Iow, store says "shirts required" (similar to no firearms... a private property setting the rules to be served) and you walk in w/o a shirt, that in of itself is not going to get you arrested for trespassing. Store owner tells you to leave. You say "NO". He calls police. We will not arrest you for tresspass. Acting as agent of the store owner we tell you to leave or you will be arrested for trespasing. If you THEN refuse, you will get arrested (or cited) for trespassing.

I've gone to hundreds of trespassing type cases and it always works that way.

The store can also formally trespass you via notice, in other words at the time we eject you from the store (or the time you are getting arrested), you will be issued a trespass notice. The official notice, per the store personnel (we are merely acting as agents for them) puts you on notice that if you return within X years (it's on the form. Usually 1 yr), you will be arrested for trespassing. Even if you leave before the cops get there, if the guy positively ID's you (is sure it's you) you can be cited if not present, if you've been issued a trespass notice.

The guy I arrested last week started out as a terry for trespassing. He ended up having felony warrants, assaulted my partner, foot pursuit bla bla... it was a terry because the call came in that per the storeowner the person had been trespassed from the property previously and was thus trespassing. He said it was actually a condition of release from the judge, after "robbing" the store (turned out to be burglary not robbery). I could confirm none of this while enroute, but what he told dispatchers and willing to give his name etc means him reporting this stuff to us rose to the level of RAS. I could detain the male and then investigate further to find out if the trespass notice (whether a judge condition of release or a formal trespass notice) was still in effect AND he was the person trespassed.

To make a long story short, it turns out he WAS the person indicated but there was no trespass condition of release ANY MORE (it was a juvenile conviction and he had already completed his "community custody" (kind of like parole) thus there was no trespass notice/condition in effect.

However, he did have a felony warrant for Vehicular Assault and of course will also be charged for the Assault on a PO.

It was what the storeowner told us (dispatch) that gave me RAS. It turned out he WASN'T committing the crime that was reported, but that's irrelevant to the validity of the stop, since the specifics given (dress, location etc.) and the nonanonymous witness etc. gave me plenty of RAS to detain and investigate further.

And of course the fact that we can detain per RAS means that crimes like this can be investigated. It wasn't PC so I couldn't arrest and I wasn't going to walk into the store and speak to the storeowner to confirm if they had a notice or to get the guy's name so I could check with the courts on the condition of relase, since I couldn't keep an eye on the suspect AND do that. He would have ample opportunity to see my police car arrive and then leave before I had PC. Terry lets me freeze the scene and detain so I can investigate further without the suspect walking off, etc. Had to wait for backup so he could contact the store owner. Terry v. Ohio gave me the authoritah8 to detain him and investigate further to see if htere was PC or not.

Once I ran his name (which if he refused to give me I could have gotten from my laptop once I knew some incident particulars, since it was in our report database), he had felony warrant, so AT THAT POINT it went from RAS to PC

Also shows you what a moron some people are. he knew he had a warrant and yet he returned to the scene he had burglarized a few years earlier and hung out at one of their picnic benches (yes, the gas station had picnic bench outside). An intelligent person wouldn't go anywhere near that establishment since he could be recognized as a previous burglar and it was certainly a possibility the cops would be called on him etc.

If you are formally trespassed from a store and then steal a $1 stick of bubble gum, it is a burglary not a trespass and theft since you UNLAWFULLY entered (because you were trespassed and thus not allowed on property) and then you committed a crime within. I've arrested a few times for that.

Of course the prosecutor will always let it be pled down,. but technically it's a burglary (in some states, if they can prove you had the intent to steal before you entered, it is also burglary not shoplift iirc but not in my state)

Despite the fact that in my juridiction we won't arrest for trespassing based on the warning given prior to our arrival, I would not recommend standing your ground if ordered to leave. If they don't want you there, turning around and walking out is the best policy. Contrary to what others have said, they are not violating our constitutional (state or federal) RKBA rights in refusing to serve open carriers, any more than they are violting the first amendment by refusing to serve somebody that is wearing a "F*CK BUS" t-shirt, wearing of the latter being constitutionally protected, but that does not mean the store can't have a dress code that prohibits swear words on t's etc.

Thank you that was very informative.
 
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