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Police calls: Shotgun-wielding camper walking to town (Whitefish)

OC for ME

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That would be a local authority issue, those types of restrictions sound like county code.....
It sounds like it was a made up "term." I don't know. I am not implying that PALO has it wrong, the term he uses may be the easiest means to communicate a complicated issue in WA.

I do know that the RSMo do permit political subdivisions to regulate the discharge of firearms RSMo 21.750.3. No plinking in your backyard in the subdivision, or dropping pesky-nasty pigeons (rats with wings), on the wing, from the roof of your high-rise condo.

Unincorporated private land has no such restriction, and counties cannot impose such a regulation. SD is not limited to humans only in our RSMo no matter where you are, and as such, the discharge of a firearm in a justified SD situation is not a violation of any local code.
 

EMNofSeattle

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It sounds like it was a made up "term." I don't know. I am not implying that PALO has it wrong, the term he uses may be the easiest means to communicate a complicated issue in WA.

I do know that the RSMo do permit political subdivisions to regulate the discharge of firearms RSMo 21.750.3. No plinking in your backyard in the subdivision, or dropping pesky-nasty pigeons (rats with wings), on the wing, from the roof of your high-rise condo.

Unincorporated private land has no such restriction, and counties cannot impose such a regulation. SD is not limited to humans only in our RSMo no matter where you are, and as such, the discharge of a firearm in a justified SD situation is not a violation of any local code.

In Washingtons preemption law specifically says counties and cities may not regulate SD discharges....

I don't know what terms the king county code uses, but Washington DNR who regulates shooting on stae land does require "an earthen backstop" ad prohibits shooting with a reckless disregard for human safety (WAC 332-52-145) I'm not going to dig through the county code since PALO made the assertion, I'm just saying there are "rules" with that sort of language
 

onus

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The fact that the California's are responsiable for this. They elected and continue to elect these people that have run the state into the ground then they complain and leave...then they complain about the new place not being like the old place.

It isn't the Montana senators it is the people of California that are to blame for California.

California was a solid republican state until illegal aliens over ran the place.

Immigration is a FEDERAL issue which means the two senators from Montana (both democrats) have as much say in Californias immigration as the two senators from California.

The truth is American politicians failed on immigration and now the ENTIRE country is paying for it.

The good people of California who were opposed to their state being over run by illegal aliens started moving to other states in the mid 90's.

Now the good people of all those other states will learn what its like to have unfettered immigration.

If Montana and all the other states in America had done something about illegal immigration then Californians would be fleeing the state.

Its too late now, enjoy your new neighbors :)
 

MAC702

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...ONCE ON SCENE, THE COPS WOULD RUN THE SERIAL NUMBER OF THE FIREARM THROUGH THE NICS DATABASE (under the guise that they needed to make sure it wasn't stolen)...

When this happens, we need to offer up our car, cellular telephone, stereo, and everything else in our possession that contains a serial number. When they refuse to check if these items are stolen, you probably have the grounds for the lawsuit.
 

Augustin

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When this happens, we need to offer up our car, cellular telephone, stereo, and everything else in our possession that contains a serial number. When they refuse to check if these items are stolen, you probably have the grounds for the lawsuit.

Well, in defense of the cops here in Montana, these police blotter blurbs don't provide us with any info about how the "scene" was handled. I would hope that the responding police simply made contact with the open carrier (a contact and not an illegal detention) and explaned that they received a call and responded to check if everything was okay. But when they demand ID and confiscate the gun and run the serial number through the NCIC (The National Crime Information Center) database, then they have crossed the line between right and wrong.

In Montana we have a state law that require the officer to inform the person ASAP of the reason for the stop. And despite the misleading title of the law, you are NOT required to provide any kind of identification, including giving them your name.

And further the police (this applies to Federal cops as well who are in Montana) must have what Montana calls "a particularized suspicion" that the person has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense before they can legally detain you. This is the same as resonable articulable suspicion (RAS).

My advice is to demand (ask nicely) they state their particularized suspicion "for the legal record" and record their statement on your cell phone, MP3 player, pocket recorder or other non-hidden recording device.

One good way to do this is to call your own home phone and when your answering machine answers and starts recording, hand the phone to the officer and ask him to provide his statement of suspicion. If he refuses simply repeat his words into the phone yourself. Obviously this is impossible if you are already in handcuffs. Just be certain NOT to use a hidden recorder such as video sunglasses as this is illegal in Montana.

46-5-401. Investigative stop and frisk. (1) In order to obtain or verify an account of the person's presence or conduct or to determine whether to arrest the person, a peace officer may stop any person or vehicle that is observed in circumstances that create a particularized suspicion that the person or occupant of the vehicle has committed, is committing, or is about to commit an offense. If the stop is for a violation under Title 61, unless emergency circumstances exist or the officer has reasonable cause to fear for the officer's own safety or for the public's safety, the officer shall as promptly as possible inform the person of the reason for the stop. (2) A peace officer who has lawfully stopped a person or vehicle under this section may: (a) request the person's name and present address and an explanation of the person's actions and, if the person is the driver of a vehicle, demand the person's driver's license and the vehicle's registration and proof of insurance; and (b) frisk the person and take other reasonably necessary steps for protection if the officer has reasonable cause to suspect that the person is armed and presently dangerous to the officer or another person present. The officer may take possession of any object that is discovered during the course of the frisk if the officer has probable cause to believe that the object is a deadly weapon until the completion of the stop, at which time the officer shall either immediately return the object, if legally possessed, or arrest the person. (3) A peace officer acting under subsection (2) while the peace officer is not in uniform shall inform the person as promptly as possible under the circumstances and in any case before questioning the person that the officer is a peace officer.

AUGustin
 
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onus

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Augustin;1984540nicely) said:
. Just be certain NOT to use a hidden recorder such as video sunglasses as this is illegal in Montana.

Can you cite the law on this ? As far as I know, using a "hidden" recording device is only illegal if its done in a place where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy.
 
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DocWalker

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Can you cite the law on this ? As far as I know, using a "hidden" recording device is only illegal if its done in a place where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy.

I agree when you are in the public performing a public job you have no reasonable expectaion of privacy. I would hope everyone that works for the public is honest and doing a good job and not just when they think they are on camera. One of the best things keeping our freedoms is camera phones, hidden cameras. Why do you think the NSA and Goverment are recording us, it is to keep us on our best behavior...lol
 

DocWalker

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(c) records or causes to be recorded a conversation by use of a hidden electronic or mechanical device that reproduces a human conversation without the knowledge of all parties to the conversation. This subsection (1)(c) does not apply to:
(i) elected or appointed public officials or to public employees when the transcription or recording is done in the performance of official duty;
(ii) persons speaking at public meetings;
(iii) persons given warning of the transcription or recording, and if one person provides the warning, either party may record; or
(iv) a health care facility, as defined in50-5-101, or a government agency that deals with health care if the recording is of a health care emergency telephone communication made to the facility or agency.

This is the part you must be referring to. The problem is it backs our argument up that someone CAN use a hidden device in a public area.

This subsection (1)(c) does not apply to:
(i) elected or appointed public officials or to public employees when the transcription or recording is done in the performance of official duty;

This one specifically says that we can record elected, appointed or public employees as they are performing official duties.
 

Augustin

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This subsection (1)(c) does not apply to:
(i) elected or appointed public officials or to public employees when the transcription or recording is done in the performance of official duty;

This one specifically says that we can record elected, appointed or public employees as they are performing official duties.

DocWalker,

When the MCA states, “This subsection (1)(c) does not apply to:” that means that the people mentioned are EXEMPT from the law. Seems to me you have it backwards.

There are a patchwork of various state laws that govern recording the communications of others, including wiretapping and eavesdropping laws. These laws may impose liability for recording audio of a conversation without the consent of one or more parties, or for making secret audio recordings. Federal laws apply when a call is made across state lines.

MCA 45-8-213 only outlaws SECRET recordings. It is not required that the police give you their permission to record them, only that you give them a “warning of the ... recording.”

First Amendment considerations arise when you are openly recording the activities of police (or other public officials) carrying out their duties in public places. A number of U.S. Courts of Appeals have held that, in such circumstances, the First Amendment protects the right to record audio and video regardless of whether the police/officials consent. This constitutional right would override any state or federal laws that would otherwise prohibit such recording.

Twelve states require the consent of every party to a phone call or conversation in order to make the recording lawful. These "two-party consent" laws have been adopted in California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. Although they are referred to as "two-party consent" laws, consent must be obtained from every party to a phone call or conversation if it involves more than two people.

In some of these states, including in Montana, it might be enough if all parties to the call or conversation know that you are recording and proceed with the communication anyway, even if they do not voice explicit consent. So if you are recording one cop and another arrives on scene after you have informed him/her, you are required to inform the newly arrived cop as well.

There have been several public cases of people being charged with violating MCA 45-8-213. All of the cases that I’m aware of involved a violation of subsection (a).

"(a) with the purpose to terrify, intimidate, threaten, harass, annoy, or offend, communicates with a person by electronic communication and uses obscene, lewd, or profane language, suggests a lewd or lascivious act, or threatens to inflict injury or physical harm to the person or property of the person. The use of obscene, lewd, or profane language or the making of a threat or lewd or lascivious suggestions is prima facie evidence of an intent to terrify, intimidate, threaten, harass, annoy, or offend."

Most notable of these was that of Jason Christ (an idiot of the highest degree). This medical marijuana advocate threatened employees at Verizon. Another was that Randall Dugan of Belgrade who used a sexual slur with a Gallatin County Victim Assistance Program worker during an October 2009 phone call. I’m not aware of a single case being prosecuted for violating subsection (c).

The important thing is, not so much that you might get busted for secretly recording, but instead that your recording, done illegally, couldn’t be admissible in a court of law for your defense.

So if you do secretly record the police during an OC detention/arrest, it won’t help you in your defense.

AUGustin
 

DocWalker

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DocWalker,

When the MCA states, “This subsection (1)(c) does not apply to:” that means that the people mentioned are EXEMPT from the law. Seems to me you have it backwards.

There are a patchwork of various state laws that govern recording the communications of others, including wiretapping and eavesdropping laws. These laws may impose liability for recording audio of a conversation without the consent of one or more parties, or for making secret audio recordings. Federal laws apply when a call is made across state lines.

MCA 45-8-213 only outlaws SECRET recordings. It is not required that the police give you their permission to record them, only that you give them a “warning of the ... recording.”

First Amendment considerations arise when you are openly recording the activities of police (or other public officials) carrying out their duties in public places. A number of U.S. Courts of Appeals have held that, in such circumstances, the First Amendment protects the right to record audio and video regardless of whether the police/officials consent. This constitutional right would override any state or federal laws that would otherwise prohibit such recording.

Twelve states require the consent of every party to a phone call or conversation in order to make the recording lawful. These "two-party consent" laws have been adopted in California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. Although they are referred to as "two-party consent" laws, consent must be obtained from every party to a phone call or conversation if it involves more than two people.

In some of these states, including in Montana, it might be enough if all parties to the call or conversation know that you are recording and proceed with the communication anyway, even if they do not voice explicit consent. So if you are recording one cop and another arrives on scene after you have informed him/her, you are required to inform the newly arrived cop as well.

There have been several public cases of people being charged with violating MCA 45-8-213. All of the cases that I’m aware of involved a violation of subsection (a).

"(a) with the purpose to terrify, intimidate, threaten, harass, annoy, or offend, communicates with a person by electronic communication and uses obscene, lewd, or profane language, suggests a lewd or lascivious act, or threatens to inflict injury or physical harm to the person or property of the person. The use of obscene, lewd, or profane language or the making of a threat or lewd or lascivious suggestions is prima facie evidence of an intent to terrify, intimidate, threaten, harass, annoy, or offend."

Most notable of these was that of Jason Christ (an idiot of the highest degree). This medical marijuana advocate threatened employees at Verizon. Another was that Randall Dugan of Belgrade who used a sexual slur with a Gallatin County Victim Assistance Program worker during an October 2009 phone call. I’m not aware of a single case being prosecuted for violating subsection (c).

The important thing is, not so much that you might get busted for secretly recording, but instead that your recording, done illegally, couldn’t be admissible in a court of law for your defense.

So if you do secretly record the police during an OC detention/arrest, it won’t help you in your defense.

AUGustin

If I have it backwards than Montana is the only state in the United States that doesn't have to get a judge to sign a warrent to record someone. Even the NSA had to get a kangaroo court judge to sign a warrent to spy on Americans.

What does the Montana goverment and public servants have to hide if they make a law saying they can't be recorded doing public buisness in public areas that the taxpayer is paying for.

This is good a person could be paying the salaries of crooked cops through his taxes and then have them arrest him if he films them doing something wrong on public lands with public property......

This sounds more like China, Germany 1935, Soviet Union, and Iraq when Sadam was in power and not Montana.

I also think you are wrong about the recording as the US Supreme court has ruled that a public servent in a public setting has no expectation of privacy.


http://www.infowars.com/supreme-court-upholds-right-to-film-police-even-in-illinois/

http://www.naturalnews.com/038123_filming_police_first_amendment_Supreme_Court.html

So I think you are wrong and I would have no trouble filming a cop in Montana or anywhere else in this United States.

goes to if you have nothing to hide what are you fearing by being filmed?
 

Augustin

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If I have it backwards than Montana is the only state in the United States that doesn't have to get a judge to sign a warrent to record someone. Even the NSA had to get a kangaroo court judge to sign a warrent to spy on Americans.

What does the Montana goverment and public servants have to hide if they make a law saying they can't be recorded doing public buisness in public areas that the taxpayer is paying for.

This is good a person could be paying the salaries of crooked cops through his taxes and then have them arrest him if he films them doing something wrong on public lands with public property......

This sounds more like China, Germany 1935, Soviet Union, and Iraq when Sadam was in power and not Montana.

I also think you are wrong about the recording as the US Supreme court has ruled that a public servent in a public setting has no expectation of privacy.


http://www.infowars.com/supreme-court-upholds-right-to-film-police-even-in-illinois/

http://www.naturalnews.com/038123_filming_police_first_amendment_Supreme_Court.html

So I think you are wrong and I would have no trouble filming a cop in Montana or anywhere else in this United States.

goes to if you have nothing to hide what are you fearing by being filmed?

DocWalker,

I'm dropping off this thread after this post. Much of your above writings are unintelligible, full of grammatical errors, misspellings, and is off topic.

The issue here is not whether one can film the cops in public (I never said you couldn't), but instead it is about SECRETLY recording the cops during an OC detention. There is no law in Montana that forbids you from openly recording the cops, or from openly video taping them. The law we are discussing requires you to inform the other parties that you are recording. Simple as that. All this talk about warrants and expectation of privacy is irrelevant. Where did this business about warrants come from?

As for your links, I've listened to Alex for 16 years now, so I'm well familiar of the on-going war on filming the cops. What has been happening does look like Russia and China, but it doesn't apply to Montana. The most egregious case I know of was Illinois trying to put a man away for life in prison for filming the cops. The case went to trial and he was found not guilty. I'm guessing you heard about the case.

http://www.infowars.com/man-faces-life-in-jail-for-recording-police/

Yeah, the Supreme Court ruled that officials don't have an expectation of privacy. So blanking what!!! Its completely irrelevant to the topic of using a HIDDEN recording device without informing the other parties involved.

Goodbye and good luck with your ramblings.

AUGustin
 

DocWalker

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DocWalker,

I'm dropping off this thread after this post. Much of your above writings are unintelligible, full of grammatical errors, misspellings, and is off topic.

The issue here is not whether one can film the cops in public (I never said you couldn't), but instead it is about SECRETLY recording the cops during an OC detention. There is no law in Montana that forbids you from openly recording the cops, or from openly video taping them. The law we are discussing requires you to inform the other parties that you are recording. Simple as that. All this talk about warrants and expectation of privacy is irrelevant. Where did this business about warrants come from?

As for your links, I've listened to Alex for 16 years now, so I'm well familiar of the on-going war on filming the cops. What has been happening does look like Russia and China, but it doesn't apply to Montana. The most egregious case I know of was Illinois trying to put a man away for life in prison for filming the cops. The case went to trial and he was found not guilty. I'm guessing you heard about the case.

http://www.infowars.com/man-faces-life-in-jail-for-recording-police/

Yeah, the Supreme Court ruled that officials don't have an expectation of privacy. So blanking what!!! Its completely irrelevant to the topic of using a HIDDEN recording device without informing the other parties involved.

Goodbye and good luck with your ramblings.

AUGustin

Hey I love you also.....now give me a hug
 

onus

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Augustin - I am a little confused. In the scenario where a person is open carrying in a public place and he is stopped by police....are you saying that it is illegal under Montana law to secretly record the audio portion of their conversation without notifying the police officers ?
 

MontanaResident

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Augustin - I am a little confused. In the scenario where a person is open carrying in a public place and he is stopped by police....are you saying that it is illegal under Montana law to secretly record the audio portion of their conversation without notifying the police officers ?

The one thing I have learned about the law is that nobody knows what it is, until they are eating humble pie in front of a Judge who gives a judgment. It's never straight forward or as simple as the more laws and legislative wording only muddy's up the law. Look at the Bill of Rights, simple to the point and to be inclusive, and 230+ years later it's still being argued and debated as sometimes tiny little variables open the matter for further refinements, which ultimately weaken the original and the standing law.

IMO, be a man, and go about your business. Wanna be a bad ass, questioning a simple request or inquiry, being generally difficult, escalating a routine situation into something else, then you will be forced to bend to the will of the "law" as per the man in the black robe sayeth.
 

DocWalker

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IMO, be a man, and go about your business. Wanna be a bad ass, questioning a simple request or inquiry, being generally difficult, escalating a routine situation into something else, then you will be forced to bend to the will of the "law" as per the man in the black robe sayeth.

Thet me sum up what you just said.....


"YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITY"
 

Augustin

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Augustin - I am a little confused. In the scenario where a person is open carrying in a public place and he is stopped by police....are you saying that it is illegal under Montana law to secretly record the audio portion of their conversation without notifying the police officers ?

Right. That is my interpretation of the code. If the device is "hidden" the recording is being made secretly. Although it probably depends on the circumstances.

What MontanaResident wrote is right on - "The one thing I have learned about the law is that nobody knows what it is, until they are eating humble pie in front of a Judge who gives a judgment. It's never straight forward or as simple as the more laws and legislative wording only muddy's up the law."

What really matters is how a judge or the cops might interpret the code.

Here's my thoughts:

If you are using a pen recorder (voice only) or a sunglass recorder (voice and video) I believe that the courts would say it was hidden even if the device was clearly in your front shirt pocket or on your forehead - the recorder would be considered to be hidden in the device. Such a recording would be considered as surreptitious (done in a secret way - done, made, or acquired by stealth).

Similarly, a pocket recorder in your pocket with a remote microphone on your lapel, or placed on top of your truck's visor or in an overhead console - where it is out of view - would be considered hidden.

Now if you have a large video recorder and are openly pointing it at the cops, that clearly couldn't be considered as hidden.

It is generally known that most cell phones have video recorders in them. If you were holding up your cell phone in plain view I don't see how this could be considered as hidden, although a judge might decide so.

The best approach to CYA would be to inform the cops that your are recording, then, even if the device isn't obviously a recorder, then you are safe.

One could use a pen recorder in your shirt pocket AND a small tape recorder held in your hand or attached to a lanyard around your neck at the same time. Tell the cops you are recording them while holding up the handheld. If the cop told you to shut it off (the obvious pocket recorder), or if he/she took possession of it, or if you lost control of it while being handcuffed, you would still be recording the scene with the pen recorder. Once downloaded on a computer the recording would have your words informing them of your actions/intentions. Since you told them you were going to record them, I think it would fly.

The most important point I want to make is that a recording - done without permission - would be inadmissible in court. So why do it? Isn't the point of recording for one's legal protection?

There are some differing opinions in this thread:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?61905-Montana-Recording-of-Conversations

AUGustin
 
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Augustin

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Hey I love you also.....now give me a hug

Okay, a gentleman you are. I don't know about the hug thing, but how about this? Lets consider each other as good friends who have never met? And if you are ever in my neck of the woods (Kalispell Montana) look me up and we'll go to the gun range and shoot each others guns and I'll buy lunch. Deal?

Augustin
 

DocWalker

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Okay, a gentleman you are. I don't know about the hug thing, but how about this? Lets consider each other as good friends who have never met? And if you are ever in my neck of the woods (Kalispell Montana) look me up and we'll go to the gun range and shoot each others guns and I'll buy lunch. Deal?

Augustin

Deal,

I make it to Spokane three or four times a year (wife's family), it will give me an excuse to escape.
 
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