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Thread: Bye-bye VA Non-resident Recognition in PA

  1. #1
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    Bye-bye VA Non-resident Recognition in PA

    As of August 9, 2013 holders of VA non-resident CCPs lost their ability to any-carry in Philly and to CC in the rest of Pennsylvania without a PA LTCF.

    NOTICE: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...e_Virginia.pdf

    MODIFIED RECIPROCITY AGREEMENT (note limitation to residents): http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...ement_2013.pdf

    Bottom line:

    1. Dual PA/VA residents are OK provided they have proof of VA residence and CCP on their person.
    2. VA residents with VA CCPs are also OK.
    3. Non-residents of VA (including PA residents) may no longer carry in PA on VA non-resident permits.
    Last edited by CT Barfly; 08-19-2013 at 06:27 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Slight problem with the cites: both are 404, file or directory not avaiable.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT Barfly View Post
    Might be http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...e_Virginia.pdf

    http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...ement_2013.pdf

    What ever text editor he used included the ellipses in the URL
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-19-2013 at 06:16 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Fixed, thanks Nightmare. I cross posted this to PA forum as well and when I cut/paste the abbreviation came over with ellipses.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Can you still OC in Pa (not counting Philly)?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Can you still OC in Pa (not counting Philly)?
    OC is still the default standard in PA, with the exception that a recognized permit is required in Philly per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Permit also required to transport handguns (loaded or not) in addition to required for Philly. Any state permit covers you in the car, however not in Philly.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCop View Post
    Permit also required to transport handguns (loaded or not) in addition to required for Philly. Any state permit covers you in the car, however not in Philly.
    Not required to transport, but required to carry in vehicle.
    http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms

    TRANSPORTATION IN A VEHICLEA handgun being transported in a vehicle without a license to carry must be unloaded and must be carried under one of the exceptions listed above under ‘Carry.’ Rifles and shotguns may be transported in a vehicle as long as they are unloaded.
    While transporting a firearm without a license, it is up to the person carrying the firearm to demonstrate that one of the exceptions applies. A law enforcement officer may demand such evidence.
    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state...nsylvania.aspx

    There is however a law that requires a License To Carry Firearms to carry either way in "cities of the first class", which as defined by law is only the city of Philadelphia.
    18 Pa.C.S. § 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia

    • No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:


    Reciprocity recognized by PA which includes Philedelphia:
    http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184

    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-19-2013 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Format
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCop View Post
    Permit also required to transport handguns (loaded or not) in addition to required for Philly. Any state permit covers you in the car, however not in Philly.
    This would not be constitutional ... anyway

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    The Utah non-res permit is still valid in Pa!
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    The Utah non-res permit is still valid in Pa!
    I'm betting that FL and VA knuckled under to protect their own residents after the new AG threatened to invalidate entire reciprocity agreements if they didn't agree to trimming off the non-resident recognition.

    UT has to look out for its own residents first and foremost, so you UT non-resident holders can look forward to losing PA in the near future...just a hunch, tho.

    I'd also bet that non-resident PA LTCFs will be under fire in the near future, too.

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    The law also says the exceptions are to or from a place of purchase, repair or range if you don't have a LTCF, permit from a reciprocal state or a permit issued by any state.

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    18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license

    (a) Offense defined.--*(1)*Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.*(2)*A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    (8)*Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.

    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...out-a-license/

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    from what i read in the links this only applies to PA residents whose only chp was a VA non resident permit. if i'm a resident of a state other than PA with a non resident permit it appears to still be valid. correct me if i am misreading something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 67GT390FB View Post
    from what i read in the links this only applies to PA residents whose only chp was a VA non resident permit. if i'm a resident of a state other than PA with a non resident permit it appears to still be valid. correct me if i am misreading something.
    That's what the first link (the AG's letter) suggests, but if you read the actual agreement, it's quite different.

    The agreement has 5 parts, once you get past all of the "WHEREAS" introductory sections.

    1. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania shall give full faith and credit to a valid Concealed Handgun License issued by the Commonwealth of Virginia to legal residents of the Commonwealth of Virginia; and

    2. The Commonwealth of Virginia shall consider holders of a valid Concealed Handgun License issued by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to be concealed handgun permittees in Virginia as required by 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia; and

    3. Persons carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to the memorandum of Agreement shall comply with all applicable concealed carry laws, rules and regulations of the respective states, including, but not limited to, age requirements and restrictions regarding the type of firearms that may be carried; and

    4. The Commonwealth of Virginia and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will inform each other of any changes to their respective weapons statutes that may affect the eligibility of the recognition granted by each state pursuant to this Memorandum of Agreement.

    5. This Reciprocity Agreement shall become effective April 9, 2013.
    The important thing to remember in reading this is that the default state is that a permit/license is not recognized. This agreement then states the conditions under which each state will recognize the other's permit/license. With that in mind, note the part I put in red and bolded. Pennsylvania only agreed to recognize Virginia permits issued to residents of Virginia. Virginia (on the other hand) expressed no such limitation regarding Pennsylvania permits. Unless there is another agreement that covers Virginia permits issued to non-residents, the default state is what applies, and the permit is not recognized.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
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    Utah reciprocity is a matter of law, not agreement of the rabidly anti gun AG. Non resident Pa permits are also a matter of law and only can be modified by an act of the legislature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCop View Post
    Utah reciprocity is a matter of law, not agreement of the rabidly anti gun AG. Non resident Pa permits are also a matter of law and only can be modified by an act of the legislature.
    Correct on both counts. I just don't see PA as headed in the right direction.

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