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Thread: Gas station employee halts knife-wielding man, WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Cool Gas station employee halts knife-wielding man, WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13

    An employee of a Marathon gas station in Lexington, Ky. confronted a man who was urinating on the outside of the building. The public urinator responded to the employee with racial slurs, drew a knife and moved towards the employee. The employee, and Right-to-Carry permit holder, countered by drawing a pistol and firing a shot. Startled by the shot, the criminal inadvertently stabbed himself with his own knife, requiring medical attention at a nearby hospital.

    Police told a local media outlet that they will not charge the employee. (WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13)
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    I had never heard about this till I read about it on the NRA-ILA site. Anyone have more details?
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG6b7KJ1Ah0
    Seinfeld- Parking Garage


    Maybe he was in mortal danger !

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Really? That was completely and totally asinine!
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    I had never heard about this till I read about it on the NRA-ILA site. Anyone have more details?
    http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/P...218247701.html

    http://www.kentucky.com/2013/08/03/2...urinating.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    They should have arrested the employee for reckless discharge.

    Warning shots into the air are a bad idea, especially in a populated area.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    They should have arrested the employee for reckless discharge.

    Warning shots into the air are a bad idea, especially in a populated area.
    Granted that firing in the air is not a safe practice, but I do so hate to see people arrested/prosecuted for the harm that they might have, could have caused.

    My guess is that he will be "punished" by his employer with the loss of his job.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Granted that firing in the air is not a safe practice, but I do so hate to see people arrested/prosecuted for the harm that they might have, could have caused.

    My guess is that he will be "punished" by his employer with the loss of his job.
    Unfortunately, chances are you're correct Grapeshot! Have to wait and see how it all ends up.
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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Granted that firing in the air is not a safe practice, but I do so hate to see people arrested/prosecuted for the harm that they might have, could have caused.

    My guess is that he will be "punished" by his employer with the loss of his job.
    Eh imo the rare chance the "fire in the air" could have caused serious damage to someone is worth the odds versus some guy charging me with a knife?

    Or rather have shot the threat in a non lethal place, after all the main clearly was threaten and in danger and had every right to do so?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEX_XDM40compact View Post
    Eh imo the rare chance the "fire in the air" could have caused serious damage to someone is worth the odds versus some guy charging me with a knife?

    Or rather have shot the threat in a non lethal place, after all the main clearly was threaten and in danger and had every right to do so?
    IMO - that is irresponsible and not the way we conduct ourselves. Explain your thinking
    to the father of this 7 yo boy.
    http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration

    Absurd. Have you ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1 1/2 sec? You are showing your naivety.

    Every fired bullet has a destination - you either control it or you do not. The degree to which you control the shot will depend on the circumstances and your training.

    Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort.

    Note: In the time it took you to read this, that 1 1/2 sec. window has expired
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    The employee, and Right-to-Carry permit holder
    What is a Right-To-Carry permit in Kentucky?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-23-2013 at 06:01 PM. Reason: small F-bomb

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtabb View Post
    What is a Right-To-Carry permit in Kentucky?
    The professional media's primary claim to professionalism is that they still get paid for making mistakes.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member CCinMaine's Avatar
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    Re: Gas station employee halts knife-wielding man, WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMO - that is irresponsible and not the way we conduct ourselves. Explain your thinking
    to the father of this 7 yo boy.
    http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration

    Absurd. Have you ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1 1/2 sec? You are showing your naivety.

    Every fired bullet has a destination - you either control it or you do not. The degree to which you control the shot will depend on the circumstances and your training.

    Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort.

    Note: In the time it took you to read this, that 1 1/2 sec. window has expired
    Well said Grape. I agree completely. You are always 100% responsible for every single round you fire. As for shooting to wound, if you have the time to aim at a non vital part of their body then I'd say odds are you aren't justified to shoot in the first place. Not to mention if you aim only to wound then you are almost admitting to not feeling justified to use lethal force. That being said, discharge of a firearm at a person is considered lethal force even if they aren't fatally wounded or even hit at all.
    IMHO anyways.
    Last edited by CCinMaine; 08-24-2013 at 12:12 AM.

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    Cited for wanton endangerment and released
    Ok who thinks he'll show up for court?





    Mike

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMO - that is irresponsible and not the way we conduct ourselves. Explain your thinking
    to the father of this 7 yo boy.
    http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration

    Absurd. Have you ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1 1/2 sec? You are showing your naivety.

    Every fired bullet has a destination - you either control it or you do not. The degree to which you control the shot will depend on the circumstances and your training.

    Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort.

    Note: In the time it took you to read this, that 1 1/2 sec. window has expired
    I was aware of this happening, However my post i made @ 3am seemed to be poorly written and not properly worded, No i would NEVER randomly fire in the air as a warning shot or any shot for that matter into the air... That was not my intention of my post to make it seem that way..

    However "have i ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1/2 sec?" if you are implying to someone running at me with a knife then yes. I have ran drills that would cover this. Which as my statement mentioned I would have SHOT the man once he approached me (my danger zone) with the knife to stop the threat., ( as mentioned in the news post the guy was approaching him with a knife)(if you are implying something else; yes i can say i have fired my trusty 7mm @ a deer while 'running' and was on target lol)

    "Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort."

    100% agree. in the split second I would have to decided a last resort, If i was seriously threatened by someone charging me with a knife in which i could NOT get away some how aka run, jump in a car etc...and I was carrying ( as I am certain i would be) I WOULD shoot to STOP the threat, be it lethal or non lethal. I can only hope someone else would do the same in a life threatening situation.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEX_XDM40compact View Post
    I was aware of this happening, However my post i made @ 3am seemed to be poorly written and not properly worded, No i would NEVER randomly fire in the air as a warning shot or any shot for that matter into the air... That was not my intention of my post to make it seem that way..

    However "have i ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1/2 sec?" if you are implying to someone running at me with a knife then yes. I have ran drills that would cover this. Which as my statement mentioned I would have SHOT the man once he approached me (my danger zone) with the knife to stop the threat., ( as mentioned in the news post the guy was approaching him with a knife)(if you are implying something else; yes i can say i have fired my trusty 7mm @ a deer while 'running' and was on target lol)

    "Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort."

    100% agree. in the split second I would have to decided a last resort, If i was seriously threatened by someone charging me with a knife in which i could NOT get away some how aka run, jump in a car etc...and I was carrying ( as I am certain i would be) I WOULD shoot to STOP the threat, be it lethal or non lethal. I can only hope someone else would do the same in a life threatening situation.
    Appreciate the clarification very much and apologize if my words lacked consideration. I have made more than my fair share of poorly chosen words, especially during late night sessions.

    The 21' rule (does it have a name?) introduces one of the most difficult to master combination of conditions: high stress, very limited time, and a host of others that will degrade the best training all to frequently. Would pray that none of us are put in that position. Again, thank you for your response, sir.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Mythbusters Did This

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMO - that is irresponsible and not the way we conduct ourselves. Explain your thinking
    to the father of this 7 yo boy.
    http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration

    Absurd. Have you ever tried to stop a moving target that can cover 21 ft in 1 1/2 sec? You are showing your naivety.

    Every fired bullet has a destination - you either control it or you do not. The degree to which you control the shot will depend on the circumstances and your training.

    Move and shoot to STOP - no warning shots - know your backstop - shoot to STOP as a last resort.

    Note: In the time it took you to read this, that 1 1/2 sec. window has expired
    Actually, The Mythbusters did just this in "Never Bring A Knife To A Gunfight", Season 10, Episode 11 (knife lost every time). Of course they knew what was going to happen, which isn't always real-life.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtabb View Post
    Actually, The Mythbusters did just this in "Never Bring A Knife To A Gunfight", Season 10, Episode 11 (knife lost every time). Of course they knew what was going to happen, which isn't always real-life.
    Myth Busters is so Hollywood.

    Think this test and explanation of the Tueller Drill is considerably more accurate:
    "Many times at 21 feet the gun guy will dominate...but 21 feet is the FURTHEREST point where the sword guy started to be an IMMEDIATE danger. As the start distance gets less than 21 feet the person with the knife or sword starts to gain an advantage. And the news is that the knife guy will get closer before he attacks."
    http://www.bladefighting.com/21footrule.htm

    Tueller: How many times have we said, “If I knew back then what I know now?” I’d stress the concept of reaction and response. What I was trying to get across is that most people don’t realize how fast an adversary can cover the distance.
    http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-tueller-drill-revisited
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-24-2013 at 01:14 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    An employee of a Marathon gas station in Lexington, Ky. confronted a man who was urinating on the outside of the building. The public urinator responded to the employee with racial slurs, drew a knife and moved towards the employee. The employee, and Right-to-Carry permit holder, countered by drawing a pistol and firing a shot. Startled by the shot, the criminal inadvertently stabbed himself with his own knife, requiring medical attention at a nearby hospital.

    Police told a local media outlet that they will not charge the employee. (WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13)
    I love how it's always, "They will not charge the VICTIM." How about they tell the truth, and simply say he defended himself and they CAN'T charge him because he did nothing wrong. The media always makes it seem like the police COULD arrest those that defend themselves, but they don't just because. Here in KY, if they had arrested the victim then whoever did so would be committing an unlawful act. KRS Chapter 503.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    They should have arrested the employee for reckless discharge.

    Warning shots into the air are a bad idea, especially in a populated area.
    Kentucky does not have such a statute; the charge would be "Wanton Endangerment," but firing into the air wouldn't apply. If he fired at the ground near people then he could be charged with it. Does the Lexington urban-county government have a "reckless discharge" ordinance?

    As for firing into the air, when the projectile starts coming back down, it will be doing so at free-fall speed, not the speed that it comes out of the firearm. If it hit someone on the head it would probably sting, but it would NOT be deadly or life-threatening. I am speaking of firing straight up; if you fired just a couple feet over someone's head then of course the bullet would only arch and could still come into contact with someone while moving at deadly velocities.

    I do NOT condone firing a gun into the air. I also wouldn't want to kill someone unless I absolutely had to do so. This is a situation where you have to make split-second decisions, and that is what he did. Perhaps he didn't make the right one, but nobody was hurt and nobody died.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    --snipped--

    As for firing into the air, when the projectile starts coming back down, it will be doing so at free-fall speed, not the speed that it comes out of the firearm. If it hit someone on the head it would probably sting, but it would NOT be deadly or life-threatening. I am speaking of firing straight up; if you fired just a couple feet over someone's head then of course the bullet would only arch and could still come into contact with someone while moving at deadly velocities.

    I do NOT condone firing a gun into the air. I also wouldn't want to kill someone unless I absolutely had to do so. This is a situation where you have to make split-second decisions, and that is what he did. Perhaps he didn't make the right one, but nobody was hurt and nobody died.
    Disagree with the contention that a round fired straight up & falling at terminal velocity cannot kill you. Please read Dictim1,2 & especially 3.
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1199/can-a-bullet-fired-into-the-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down


    http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration


    http://gawker.com/5869793/do-not-sho...u-kill-someone

    http://www.guns.com/2013/07/04/gunsh...of-july-video/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Appreciate the clarification very much and apologize if my words lacked consideration. I have made more than my fair share of poorly chosen words, especially during late night sessions.

    The 21' rule (does it have a name?) introduces one of the most difficult to master combination of conditions: high stress, very limited time, and a host of others that will degrade the best training all to frequently. Would pray that none of us are put in that position. Again, thank you for your response, sir.
    glad i typed the clarification properly seeing as it was another late nigher post

    @ the whole something falling down can not kill someone, im certain its been confirmed it can and not only with just a bullet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    Cited for wanton endangerment and released
    Ok who thinks he'll show up for court?





    Mike
    They had no choice but to issue a citation.

    If the act didn't occur in the presence of an officer then they cannot arrest. Even if they have probable cause they cannot arrest for misdemeanors committed outside their presence except in limited circumstances.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Kentucky does not have such a statute; the charge would be "Wanton Endangerment," but firing into the air wouldn't apply. If he fired at the ground near people then he could be charged with it. Does the Lexington urban-county government have a "reckless discharge" ordinance?

    As for firing into the air, when the projectile starts coming back down, it will be doing so at free-fall speed, not the speed that it comes out of the firearm. If it hit someone on the head it would probably sting, but it would NOT be deadly or life-threatening. I am speaking of firing straight up; if you fired just a couple feet over someone's head then of course the bullet would only arch and could still come into contact with someone while moving at deadly velocities.

    I do NOT condone firing a gun into the air. I also wouldn't want to kill someone unless I absolutely had to do so. This is a situation where you have to make split-second decisions, and that is what he did. Perhaps he didn't make the right one, but nobody was hurt and nobody died.
    I charged somebody once for doing exactly this- firing into the air. Granted, this was in WA state. I charged him with Reckless Endangerment

    RCW 9A.36.050
    Reckless endangerment.

    (1) A person is guilty of reckless endangerment when he or she recklessly engages in conduct not amounting to drive-by shooting but that creates a substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to another person.

    (2) Reckless endangerment is a gross misdemeanor.

    And yes, he was found guilty. At time of arrest, he gave the same defense I have seen in this thread, that a falling bullet would not be fatal. From what I've read here and elsewhere, it CAN be fatal, and certainly could cause a "substantial risk of serious physical injury" which is the element that needs to be proved for one to be found guilty of Reckless Endangerment in WA as per above.

    And yes, in WA as in many other states, I can only arrest (custodially - as in booking) for CERTAIN misdemeanors if they are not committed in my presence (iow based on PC but not witnessed). Any misdemeanor *in* my presence is arrestable. Reckless Endangerment is NOT one of the listed misdemeanors I can arrest on PC based on statute AND "(1) Any police officer having probable cause to believe that a person has committed or is committing a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor, involving physical harm or threats of harm" I don't think applies (subsection 1 of the misdemeanor presence rule exception) since I was not aware of any ACTUAL harm only POTENTIAL harm and not "Threat of harm" since that refers to actual threats thereof, not creating a risk thereof as I interpret it.

    So, I released him at the scene with a criminal citation, since it's not "arrestable" (as in formal booking). I did seize his firearm. I had a COPS crew filming with me at the time. You could make an ARGUMENT it was "in my presence", since I HEARD one of the shots when I first approached, but didn't visually witness it. Maybe that would count as in my presence, but I didn't feel like making case law so I figured citation was the safe bet

    Unfortunately, he wouldn't sign a release so it wasn't aired. Believe it or not, when you see some guy on COPS making a fool of himself - he signed a release or else they can't air the episode!
    Last edited by PALO; 08-24-2013 at 11:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The first source pretty much says exactly what I did.

    The second source seems to imply that the child was hit by direct gun-fire -- someone who meant to shoot up but shot into a kid's head.

    The third source was discussing a shot from a muzzle-loader. You go from a handgun caliber to a .50 caliber muzzle-loading round and a great increase in weight. Most muzzle-loading rounds are 350+ grains. Also, the article doesn't say how the round was fired (vertical into the sky or at an angle). It only says she was hit in the head. I would be willing to bet this man didn't fire his gun straight up, but rather at an angle which would give the round much more velocity on target (much like snipers and extreme holdover to get on target), being as she was hit over a mile from where the man fired the gun. This would go back to my original post of shooting at an angle CAN STILL BE LETHAL.

    The same can be said for the fourth source. It never mentions whether the round came from an angle or straight down; all it does say is that he was hit atop his head, which could mean anything.

    I SPECIFICALLY stated that a round fired into the air at an angle can STILL be deadly to someone on the ground. These articles you posted make no mention of how the firearms were fired or how the rounds impacted their unintended recipients, so no basis can be made on whether shooting STRAIGHT up is lethal.

    I shouldn't have to repeat my first post, and I won't.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 08-24-2013 at 11:43 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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