• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Gas station employee halts knife-wielding man, WKYT, Lexington, Ky. 08/04/13

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
--snipped--

As for firing into the air, when the projectile starts coming back down, it will be doing so at free-fall speed, not the speed that it comes out of the firearm. If it hit someone on the head it would probably sting, but it would NOT be deadly or life-threatening. I am speaking of firing straight up; if you fired just a couple feet over someone's head then of course the bullet would only arch and could still come into contact with someone while moving at deadly velocities.

I do NOT condone firing a gun into the air. I also wouldn't want to kill someone unless I absolutely had to do so. This is a situation where you have to make split-second decisions, and that is what he did. Perhaps he didn't make the right one, but nobody was hurt and nobody died.
Disagree with the contention that a round fired straight up & falling at terminal velocity cannot kill you. Please read Dictim1,2 & especially 3.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1199/can-a-bullet-fired-into-the-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down


http://www.abc27.com/story/22766886/...ly-celebration


http://gawker.com/5869793/do-not-shoot-your-gun-in-the-air-lest-you-kill-someone

http://www.guns.com/2013/07/04/guns...-shoot-into-the-air-on-the-4th-of-july-video/
 

LEX_XDM40compact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
88
Location
LEX, KY
Appreciate the clarification very much and apologize if my words lacked consideration. I have made more than my fair share of poorly chosen words, especially during late night sessions.

The 21' rule (does it have a name?) introduces one of the most difficult to master combination of conditions: high stress, very limited time, and a host of others that will degrade the best training all to frequently. Would pray that none of us are put in that position. Again, thank you for your response, sir.

:) glad i typed the clarification properly seeing as it was another late nigher post :)

@ the whole something falling down can not kill someone, im certain its been confirmed it can and not only with just a bullet?
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
Cited for wanton endangerment and released :banghead:
Ok who thinks he'll show up for court?





Mike

They had no choice but to issue a citation.

If the act didn't occur in the presence of an officer then they cannot arrest. Even if they have probable cause they cannot arrest for misdemeanors committed outside their presence except in limited circumstances.
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Kentucky does not have such a statute; the charge would be "Wanton Endangerment," but firing into the air wouldn't apply. If he fired at the ground near people then he could be charged with it. Does the Lexington urban-county government have a "reckless discharge" ordinance?

As for firing into the air, when the projectile starts coming back down, it will be doing so at free-fall speed, not the speed that it comes out of the firearm. If it hit someone on the head it would probably sting, but it would NOT be deadly or life-threatening. I am speaking of firing straight up; if you fired just a couple feet over someone's head then of course the bullet would only arch and could still come into contact with someone while moving at deadly velocities.

I do NOT condone firing a gun into the air. I also wouldn't want to kill someone unless I absolutely had to do so. This is a situation where you have to make split-second decisions, and that is what he did. Perhaps he didn't make the right one, but nobody was hurt and nobody died.

I charged somebody once for doing exactly this- firing into the air. Granted, this was in WA state. I charged him with Reckless Endangerment

RCW 9A.36.050
Reckless endangerment.

(1) A person is guilty of reckless endangerment when he or she recklessly engages in conduct not amounting to drive-by shooting but that creates a substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to another person.

(2) Reckless endangerment is a gross misdemeanor.

And yes, he was found guilty. At time of arrest, he gave the same defense I have seen in this thread, that a falling bullet would not be fatal. From what I've read here and elsewhere, it CAN be fatal, and certainly could cause a "substantial risk of serious physical injury" which is the element that needs to be proved for one to be found guilty of Reckless Endangerment in WA as per above.

And yes, in WA as in many other states, I can only arrest (custodially - as in booking) for CERTAIN misdemeanors if they are not committed in my presence (iow based on PC but not witnessed). Any misdemeanor *in* my presence is arrestable. Reckless Endangerment is NOT one of the listed misdemeanors I can arrest on PC based on statute AND "(1) Any police officer having probable cause to believe that a person has committed or is committing a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor, involving physical harm or threats of harm" I don't think applies (subsection 1 of the misdemeanor presence rule exception) since I was not aware of any ACTUAL harm only POTENTIAL harm and not "Threat of harm" since that refers to actual threats thereof, not creating a risk thereof as I interpret it.

So, I released him at the scene with a criminal citation, since it's not "arrestable" (as in formal booking). I did seize his firearm. I had a COPS crew filming with me at the time. You could make an ARGUMENT it was "in my presence", since I HEARD one of the shots when I first approached, but didn't visually witness it. Maybe that would count as in my presence, but I didn't feel like making case law :) so I figured citation was the safe bet

Unfortunately, he wouldn't sign a release so it wasn't aired. Believe it or not, when you see some guy on COPS making a fool of himself - he signed a release or else they can't air the episode!
 
Last edited:

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY

The first source pretty much says exactly what I did.

The second source seems to imply that the child was hit by direct gun-fire -- someone who meant to shoot up but shot into a kid's head.

The third source was discussing a shot from a muzzle-loader. You go from a handgun caliber to a .50 caliber muzzle-loading round and a great increase in weight. Most muzzle-loading rounds are 350+ grains. Also, the article doesn't say how the round was fired (vertical into the sky or at an angle). It only says she was hit in the head. I would be willing to bet this man didn't fire his gun straight up, but rather at an angle which would give the round much more velocity on target (much like snipers and extreme holdover to get on target), being as she was hit over a mile from where the man fired the gun. This would go back to my original post of shooting at an angle CAN STILL BE LETHAL.

The same can be said for the fourth source. It never mentions whether the round came from an angle or straight down; all it does say is that he was hit atop his head, which could mean anything.

I SPECIFICALLY stated that a round fired into the air at an angle can STILL be deadly to someone on the ground. These articles you posted make no mention of how the firearms were fired or how the rounds impacted their unintended recipients, so no basis can be made on whether shooting STRAIGHT up is lethal.

I shouldn't have to repeat my first post, and I won't.
 
Last edited:

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
I love how it's always, "They will not charge the VICTIM." How about they tell the truth, and simply say he defended himself and they CAN'T charge him because he did nothing wrong. The media always makes it seem like the police COULD arrest those that defend themselves, but they don't just because. Here in KY, if they had arrested the victim then whoever did so would be committing an unlawful act. KRS Chapter 503.

If he fired in the air, he did something wrong.

'Imo, it's UNDERSTANDABLE and as a matter of discretion, I wouldn't charge a crime victim in such circ;'s who fired into the air, but it's neither a valid nor legal response to being presented with such a threat.

Ofc's have discretion and I would clearly use it in a case like that.

Fwiw, I have responded to dozens of citizen self defense with gun cases (without shots fired, just holding a bad guy at gunpoint or he ran away) and nobody has ever fired a warning shot in any incident I've been to.

Or at least they didn't admit it :)

I don't think a warning is appropriate, and warning shots are NOT how we teach self defense, as a firearms instructor we don't teach warning shots. In an area where you can shoot into the GROUND, like dirt (vs. pavement) I would not have a probkem with it, since it would not place anybody in danger
 
Last edited:

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA
What is a Right-To-Carry permit in Kentucky?

I copied this story over from the NRA-ILA page and I assume that whomever wrote up the story, whether it be from within the NRA (who should know the law better than that) or most like it was copied over from the TV station copy.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
--snipped--

Unfortunately, he wouldn't sign a release so it wasn't aired. Believe it or not, when you see some guy on COPS making a fool of himself - he signed a release or else they can't air the episode!
IMO, in most states, someone in public has no right to privacy and is fair game for the media or a private actor to record or video - some restrictions may apply. That and the program may have self-imposed restrictions.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I think the real problem comes from the use of those recordings for commercial purposes. An individual story in a newspaper or a TV news report is not a commercial purpose, its just news. The entire newspaper or TV station is a commercial enterprise. A TV program recorded for entertainment is a commercial purpose.


Point taken!
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
IMO, in most states, someone in public has no right to privacy and is fair game for the media or a private actor to record or video - some restrictions may apply. That and the program may have self-imposed restrictions.

It has nothing to do with those rights.

You (and I) have every right to record people in public places etc.

The issue is using that video in commercial enterprise for entertainment purposes to gain profit. It's how the video is used.

THAT is the issue. In that case, COPS needs to get your permission, because they are using the video for OTHER than "news" purposes

http://www.reelseo.com/video-waivers/

This is something I figured somebody would misunderstand as soon as I posted it. If you videotape a cop in public, it's a ToTAL non-issue, since they are public servants, like politicians, etc. and you pretty much have carte blanche to disseminate that video

However, if you are videotaping a private citizen AND you are not using it for "news" purposes but are broadcasting/disseminating it to others and especially if for profit, you can be faced with CIVIL liability, realizing laws vary state to state. It's usually under some form of the "misappropriation of identity" law iirc
http://mentalfloss.com/article/19326/5-things-you-didnt-know-about-cops

A commercial show like COPS is not going to risk that kind of civil liability. As a private citizen, you have much less to worry about.
 
Last edited:

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
I think the real problem comes from the use of those recordings for commercial purposes. An individual story in a newspaper or a TV news report is not a commercial purpose, its just news. The entire newspaper or TV station is a commercial enterprise. A TV program recorded for entertainment is a commercial purpose.


Correct. It doesn't HAVE to be commercial to violate some of these statutes, but that is *a* factor

News is always an exception, due to first amendment interpretation. Use of video of a person's actions in public for NON news purposes can expose one to civil liability realizing laws vary state to state. These are civil , not criminal issues. In many states, the term is 'misappropriation of identity"
 

dtabb

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
23
Location
Louisville, KY, ,
Mythbusters Again


The Mythbusters, Episode 50, also tested this. They even went so far as to drop bullets from an instrumented balloon, bypassing the trajectory question. They found:

1. A returning bullet falling only by gravity (from the balloon) is not harmful as it will tumble, reducing its terminal velocity to non lethal. It does not fall blunt side down per the Grapeshop link; it tumbles so at impact any part of it could be down.

2. Firing a bullet perfectly vertically is virtually impossible, even with precision jigs due to a number of factors. Therefore, bullets rarely return solely by gravity and remain spin stabilized, following a trajectory.

3. Bullets meeting state 2, above, are very lethal, and includes virtually all bullets fired "straight up".
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I will not entertain anyone in the manner of Hollywood, TV programs or the like - Myth Busters included.

Suffice it to say, we are probably not talking about dead vertical shots, but irresponsible shots fired into the air at an unknown angle that quite possibly will come down with lethal force, presuming normal defensive handgun loads = 38/357 cal, 9mm, 40 cal, 45 cal & maybe 10mm.

Paraphrasing a friend, "You want to stay on my Christmas card list, you better do good."

Don't do stupid things - don't win stupid prizes. Know where that shot is going.
 

dtabb

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
23
Location
Louisville, KY, ,
Resources

I will not entertain anyone in the manner of Hollywood, TV programs or the like - Myth Busters included.

I have never considered it wise to limit my resources. I read every one of your links, and provided an additional resource.

This is what we should be doing here.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Grapeshot

I will not entertain anyone in the manner of Hollywood, TV programs or the like - Myth Busters included.
I have never considered it wise to limit my resources. I read every one of your links, and provided an additional resource.

This is what we should be doing here.

Presume you are talking about legitimate ballistic studies as being additional "resources", rather than as you appear to be responding to my "Hollywood" reply.

The library has an entire wing devoted to resources similar in nature to Hollywood and TV - its called fiction.

Still I do get your point.
 
Top