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Thread: Spokane Centennial Trail No Firearms

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    Regular Member jhfc's Avatar
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    Spokane Centennial Trail No Firearms

    I was up in Spokane for the weekend, stayed near the river downtown and had a chance to walk parts of the Centennial trail a few times. I noticed a sign near Mission indicating firearms were prohibited.

    I also see the same text on the web site for the Friends of the Centennial Trail:

    http://spokanecentennialtrail.org/tr...quette-safety/

    I'm sure Spokane locals are aware of the signage and web site.

    Is the trail part of the park system and preemption would apply? If so, is any action occurring to get the erroneous signage and web site information changed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    I was up in Spokane for the weekend, stayed near the river downtown and had a chance to walk parts of the Centennial trail a few times. I noticed a sign near Mission indicating firearms were prohibited.

    I also see the same text on the web site for the Friends of the Centennial Trail:

    http://spokanecentennialtrail.org/tr...quette-safety/

    I'm sure Spokane locals are aware of the signage and web site.

    Is the trail part of the park system and preemption would apply? If so, is any action occurring to get the erroneous signage and web site information changed?
    I called Chris Guidotti the head of Riverside State Park on this last week. They will be taping over the firearms part on the sign I believe he said there were 39 of them and they would get to them as soon as they could. He admitted he had proof read the signs and missed the firearms part and took full responsibility for the error. He also knew that they could not restrict firearms. I am hoping this was just an error and not deliberate for now I will take Mr. Guidotti at his word that it was in fact an error. The head Ranger, Audra Simms, for the Centennial Trail is well aware of the law as well and knows the sign is unenforceable.

    I also have contacted the City of Liberty Lake on their no firearms in the parks and on the portion of the Centennial Trail that runs through Liberty Lake. I recieved a letter from the police Chief Brian Asmus stating that the city counsel folks were working on it and he sent me a internal memo instructing his officers that the city laws were unenforceable and to use the RCW for firearms violations. Chief Asmus will inform me when the city counsel gets the laws changed to comply with state law. I am thinking they will need a few weeks to run it through the system.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member jhfc's Avatar
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    I figured you guys would be on the job.

    Are they going to modify the web site as well? That wouldn't take too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    I figured you guys would be on the job.

    Are they going to modify the web site as well? That wouldn't take too long.
    I have not emailed them yet but did plan on doing that today, I wanted to get the Park part of it done before I started on the friends of the trail.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member jhfc's Avatar
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    Thanks for your efforts!

    I was just curious where things stood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    Thanks for your efforts!

    I was just curious where things stood.
    Jeff doesn't mess around

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    Thanks for your efforts!

    I was just curious where things stood.
    I talked to the director of the Friends of the Centennial trail for 30 minutes today. She is quite upset that she just spent $7000 on new signs and they are wrong. They are a non profit that is doing the best they can with the funds they have. She really resisted and asked several time what my angle was to which I responded I want you to follow state law nothing more. I asked them to change their web site and never got a response. I am thinking I need to go to a board meeting.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Let me know when. Hopefully, I can go with you.

    bob

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    I talked to the director of the Friends of the Centennial trail for 30 minutes today. She is quite upset that she just spent $7000 on new signs and they are wrong. They are a non profit that is doing the best they can with the funds they have. She really resisted and asked several time what my angle was to which I responded I want you to follow state law nothing more. I asked them to change their web site and never got a response. I am thinking I need to go to a board meeting.
    A person who spends $7,000 of non-profit funding on inaccurate signs doesn't have a financing problem; they have an unqualified-for-the-job problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    A person who spends $7,000 of non-profit funding on inaccurate signs doesn't have a financing problem; they have an unqualified-for-the-job problem.
    I agree but in her defense she had Chris Guidotti head of Riverside State Park and Audra Simms Chief Park Ranger review the signs before they were printed up. It appears that she did her due diligence but was let down by others that knew better. specifically Audra Simms knew better because I talked to her shortly before she approved the signs. Either we have severe incompetence or we have state employees purposefully violating the law. I can not see how it could be anything different.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Re: Spokane Centennial Trail No Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    I agree but in her defense she had Chris Guidotti head of Riverside State Park and Audra Simms Chief Park Ranger review the signs before they were printed up. It appears that she did her due diligence but was let down by others that knew better. specifically Audra Simms knew better because I talked to her shortly before she approved the signs. Either we have severe incompetence or we have state employees purposefully violating the law. I can not see how it could be anything different.
    Sure, I'm in total agreement. I also think multiple parties are at fault, here. She was let down by people who should have known better and did know better. She also demonstrated a lapse in judgement by not verifying the accuracy herself.

    Oh well. Let's hope after the unpleasant shock of the realization she responds by fixing the error and learns the lesson. Regardless, much respect to you for being so proactive in all of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    Sure, I'm in total agreement. I also think multiple parties are at fault, here. She was let down by people who should have known better and did know better. She also demonstrated a lapse in judgement by not verifying the accuracy herself.

    Oh well. Let's hope after the unpleasant shock of the realization she responds by fixing the error and learns the lesson. Regardless, much respect to you for being so proactive in all of this.
    I am going to give her a few days to think it over and I will follow up later this week.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    Sure, I'm in total agreement. I also think multiple parties are at fault, here. She was let down by people who should have known better and did know better. She also demonstrated a lapse in judgement by not verifying the accuracy herself.

    Oh well. Let's hope after the unpleasant shock of the realization she responds by fixing the error and learns the lesson. Regardless, much respect to you for being so proactive in all of this.
    I don't even care about signs anymore, so many places have no guns signs that are not legally enforceable and all (well majority) the cops seem to know that the signs are not enforceable. everytime i've tried contacting parks officials about signs all I get are "we know the state law, the ordinance has already been repealed, this isn't my job, we don't have money to replace the signs" my favorite was a Snoho County parks receptionist who told me "the signs deter criminals while not effecting law abiding gun owners" (well that's a new one) I don't even care about signs anymore, If I can legally carry while hiking, and on a hike I'm carrying and I see an unenforceable sign I walk on right past it.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    That is all well and good Eric, but, how about the many citizens that do carry and are unaware that the signs are wrong?
    They leave their firearm in the car and then the emergency arises and they are defensively naked.
    Who has been negligent in helping to protect the rights and ability to defend? More than the municipalities I would surmise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    That is all well and good Eric, but, how about the many citizens that do carry and are unaware that the signs are wrong?
    They leave their firearm in the car and then the emergency arises and they are defensively naked.
    Who has been negligent in helping to protect the rights and ability to defend? More than the municipalities I would surmise.
    But no emergency could arise. Didn't you see the part where she said the signs deter criminals?
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Quote Originally Posted by trigger dr View Post
    that is all well and good eric, but, how about the many citizens that do carry and are unaware that the signs are wrong?
    They leave their firearm in the car and then the emergency arises and they are defensively naked.
    Who has been negligent in helping to protect the rights and ability to defend? More than the municipalities i would surmise.
    ^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member jhfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    ^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^
    Yup.

    As an out of town visitor and moderately informed I wasn't sure of the legality of carrying on this particular trail. I wasn't sure if the trail was part of the parks system or some other entity that could bar firearms on their property.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Buy tape the same color as the sign and put over the offending words.


    As to EMN not caring.... wrong!

    Battling what I have referred to for years as "serial misinformation" is what OCDO is all about. This is a long term education campaign and this is an important element of our struggle for acceptance.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Buy tape the same color as the sign and put over the offending words.


    As to EMN not caring.... wrong!

    Battling what I have referred to for years as "serial misinformation" is what OCDO is all about. This is a long term education campaign and this is an important element of our struggle for acceptance.
    and that's great that Jeff and yourself have been successful, the last couple times I've tried calling over signs I get connected to some receptionist or clerk who couldn't care less and puts out some BS or tells me to talk to the department (fill in job title here) and the <fill in title here> usually has an allergic reaction to the answering machine. maybe you live in counties where people are easier to get ahold of. the last time I tried was Snohomish county several years ago, and I gave up on it because the couple calls i made ended up being transferred to answering machines and never returned.....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    That is all well and good Eric, but, how about the many citizens that do carry and are unaware that the signs are wrong?
    They leave their firearm in the car and then the emergency arises and they are defensively naked.
    Who has been negligent in helping to protect the rights and ability to defend? More than the municipalities I would surmise.
    it's your responsibility to know the law, and the laws in Washington are not that complex or contradictory, this isn't California where the section on open carry alone is longer then the entire criminal code of Washington....

    people who carry guns and don't know the carry laws have no excuse other then willful ignorance, the RCW is online for free, the RCW is carried in entirety at every public library I've ever been to, it's carried, annotated with case law records available at just about every county courthouse in this state. I've known most of the laws since I was 17. people who are into guns and don't know the laws do not get my sympathy, I can think of very few places with clearer laws that are more accessible to the general public then this state.....

    ***EDIT

    I know gogo has brought up "public education on gun laws"

    I understand that point, we should tell people new to guns a summary and inform them where to look, but in the end, when you choose to carry a piece, you assume responsibility for knowing. waiting til something happens then complaining "well EMNofSeattle, Trigger Dr, DEROS72, and Gogodawgs told me on an internet forum the law was....." won't suffice. every needs to look at the law and verify it themselves, just like when I go to the gun store and ask to see a gun, I may trust that it's unloaded on the rack, but I'll still verify that myself before checking it...
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 08-21-2013 at 11:46 AM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    and that's great that Jeff and yourself have been successful, the last couple times I've tried calling over signs I get connected to some receptionist or clerk who couldn't care less and puts out some BS or tells me to talk to the department (fill in job title here) and the <fill in title here> usually has an allergic reaction to the answering machine. maybe you live in counties where people are easier to get ahold of. the last time I tried was Snohomish county several years ago, and I gave up on it because the couple calls i made ended up being transferred to answering machines and never returned.....
    Never give up...

    I would suggest reaching out to BigDave.... he has been very successful and has offered assistance to others many times. What it takes is knowing who to contact that can make a difference and persevering... government bureaucracies are notorious for putting the citizen aside.... don't let them! furthermore, it can take time... a year or more sometimes....
    Live Free or Die!

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    That is all well and good Eric, but, how about the many citizens that do carry and are unaware that the signs are wrong?
    They leave their firearm in the car and then the emergency arises and they are defensively naked.
    Who has been negligent in helping to protect the rights and ability to defend? More than the municipalities I would surmise.
    In addition, you have citizens that look at you in the park with your gun and decide to approach you and make a stink because the sign says no weapons or no firearms, etc. If the sign was corrected, they might not approach you. Hell, this could even be a citizen that normal conceals and saw the sign so he wants to approach you to let you know. There are many levels of familiarity with the laws, most people would assume a sign is correct IMO.

    I always try to fix signs when I see them. I am currently working on the National Bison Range in Montana...
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 08-21-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    and that's great that Jeff and yourself have been successful, the last couple times I've tried calling over signs I get connected to some receptionist or clerk who couldn't care less and puts out some BS or tells me to talk to the department (fill in job title here) and the <fill in title here> usually has an allergic reaction to the answering machine. maybe you live in counties where people are easier to get ahold of. the last time I tried was Snohomish county several years ago, and I gave up on it because the couple calls i made ended up being transferred to answering machines and never returned.....
    Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
    Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with great talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
    Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
    Persistence, determination alone are omnipotent. Calvin Cooledge

    Like Nick said never give up stamina and perseverance will win every time.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I always try to fix signs when I see them. I am currently working on the National Bison Range in Montana...
    Good luck there, the Department of Interior doesn't like that they have to allow guns. they're about the only federal agency I can think of that had their specific power to regulate firearms on their outdoor lands stripped from them by congress. The US Forest Service (if I remember correctly but please correct me if I'm wrong) allow firearms by their choice, and likewise for recreational wetlands owned by the Army Corps of Engineers, who ban guns on their wetlands because they have the authority.

    the NPS/ Dept of Interior doesn't want to allow guns, they resisted the change every step of the way. They aren't just going to take down the "no gun signs".

    I actually two years ago before I joined the forum was carrying in Montana, we visited Natl Bison Range and I saw the gun buster and disarmed because I knew National Parks were Kosher but the media never mentioned that Wildlife Refuges were as well and I didn't read the law.

    you know who's fault that is? It's not yours, it's not the Dept of Interior's fault, it's my fault for not reading and understanding the laws at play and taking the sign at face value
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 08-21-2013 at 12:56 PM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Good luck there, the Department of Interior doesn't like that they have to allow guns.
    One way or another they are going to take them down, I am sure of it . They have a crap ton of signs too.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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