golddigger14s
Activist Member
Steve Lee can lead our choir:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU&list=TLxsfuF1mCfxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU&list=TLxsfuF1mCfxY
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Religion and guns.
- Thread starter amzbrady
- Start date
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Well, like I said, if we want to be taken seriously...
Its gonna take a serious martyr. A real one. Its gonna look a bit powder-puff if some Catholics, Bhuddists, or Sikhs can wave their hand dismissively and say, "Our martyrs actually died."
thewise1
Regular Member
With absolutely no intention of turning this into a religion thread, this might be interesting
The Westminster Larger Catechism actually addresses self defense and that of the innocent, with Scripture proofs.
Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.m
(m) Exod 20:13; Deut 5:17
Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselvesn and otherso by resisting all thoughts and purposes,p subduing all passions,q and avoiding all occasions,r temptations,s and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;t by just defense thereof against violence,u patient bearing of the hand of God,w quietness of mind,x cheerfulness of spirit;y a sober use of meat,z drink,a physic,b sleep,c labor,d and recreations;e by charitable thoughts,f love,g compassion,h meekness, gentleness, kindness;i peaceable,k mild, and courteous speeches and behavior;l forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil;m comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.n'
Eph 5:28-29
(o) 1 Kgs 18:4
(p) Jer 26:15-16; Acts 23:12,16-17,21,27
(q) Eph 4:26-27
(r) 2 Sam 2:22-23; Deut 22:8
(s) Matt 4:6-7; Prov 1:10-11,15-16
(t) Gen 37:21-22; 1 Sam 24:12
(u) Ps 82:4; Prov 24:11-12; 1 Sam 14:45; Jer 38:7-13
(w) Jas 5:10-11; Heb 12:9; 2 Sam 16:10-12
(x) 1 Thess 4:11; 1 Pet 3:3-4; Ps 37:8,11
Prov 17:22
(z) Prov 23:20; Prov 25:16,27
(a) 1 Tim 5:23
(b) Isa 38:21
(c) Ps 127:2
(d) 2 Thess 3:12; Eccl 5:12
(e) Eccl 3:4,11; Mark 6:31
(f) 1 Sam 19:4-5; 1 Sam 22:13-14
(g) Rom 13:10
(h) Luke 10:33-34
(i) Col 3:12-13
(k) Jas 3:17
(l) 1 Pet 3:8-11; 1 Cor 4:12-13; Prov 15:1; Judg 8:1-3
(m) Matt 5:24; Eph 4:2,32; Rom 12:17,20-21
(n') 1 Thess 5:14; Matt 25:35-36; Prov 31:8-9; Job 31:19-20; Isa 58:7
Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves,o or of others,p except in case of public justice,q lawful war,r or necessary defense;s the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life;t sinful anger,u hatred,w envy,x desire of revenge;y all excessive passions,z distracting cares;a immoderate use of meat, drink,b labor,c and recreations;d provoking words,e oppression,f quarreling,g striking, wounding,h and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.i
(o) Acts 16:28
(p) Gen 9:6
(q) Num 35:31,33; Rom 13:4
(r) Heb 11:32-34
(s) Exod 22:2
(t) Matt 25:42-43; Jas 2:15-16
(u) Matt 5:22
(w) 1 John 3:15; Lev 19:17
(x) Prov 14:30
Rom 12:19
(z) Eph 4:31
(a) Matt 6:31,34
(b) Luke 21:34; Rom 13:13
(c) Eccl 12:12; Eccl 2:22-23
(d) Isa 5:12
(e) Prov 15:1; Prov 12:18
(f) Exod 1:14; Isa 3:15
(g) Gal 5:15; Prov 23:29
(h) Num 35:16-17
(i) Exod 21:29
The Westminster Larger Catechism actually addresses self defense and that of the innocent, with Scripture proofs.
Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.m
(m) Exod 20:13; Deut 5:17
Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselvesn and otherso by resisting all thoughts and purposes,p subduing all passions,q and avoiding all occasions,r temptations,s and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;t by just defense thereof against violence,u patient bearing of the hand of God,w quietness of mind,x cheerfulness of spirit;y a sober use of meat,z drink,a physic,b sleep,c labor,d and recreations;e by charitable thoughts,f love,g compassion,h meekness, gentleness, kindness;i peaceable,k mild, and courteous speeches and behavior;l forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil;m comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.n'
Eph 5:28-29(o) 1 Kgs 18:4
(p) Jer 26:15-16; Acts 23:12,16-17,21,27
(q) Eph 4:26-27
(r) 2 Sam 2:22-23; Deut 22:8
(s) Matt 4:6-7; Prov 1:10-11,15-16
(t) Gen 37:21-22; 1 Sam 24:12
(u) Ps 82:4; Prov 24:11-12; 1 Sam 14:45; Jer 38:7-13
(w) Jas 5:10-11; Heb 12:9; 2 Sam 16:10-12
(x) 1 Thess 4:11; 1 Pet 3:3-4; Ps 37:8,11
Prov 17:22
(z) Prov 23:20; Prov 25:16,27
(a) 1 Tim 5:23
(b) Isa 38:21
(c) Ps 127:2
(d) 2 Thess 3:12; Eccl 5:12
(e) Eccl 3:4,11; Mark 6:31
(f) 1 Sam 19:4-5; 1 Sam 22:13-14
(g) Rom 13:10
(h) Luke 10:33-34
(i) Col 3:12-13
(k) Jas 3:17
(l) 1 Pet 3:8-11; 1 Cor 4:12-13; Prov 15:1; Judg 8:1-3
(m) Matt 5:24; Eph 4:2,32; Rom 12:17,20-21
(n') 1 Thess 5:14; Matt 25:35-36; Prov 31:8-9; Job 31:19-20; Isa 58:7
Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves,o or of others,p except in case of public justice,q lawful war,r or necessary defense;s the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life;t sinful anger,u hatred,w envy,x desire of revenge;y all excessive passions,z distracting cares;a immoderate use of meat, drink,b labor,c and recreations;d provoking words,e oppression,f quarreling,g striking, wounding,h and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.i
(o) Acts 16:28
(p) Gen 9:6
(q) Num 35:31,33; Rom 13:4
(r) Heb 11:32-34
(s) Exod 22:2
(t) Matt 25:42-43; Jas 2:15-16
(u) Matt 5:22
(w) 1 John 3:15; Lev 19:17
(x) Prov 14:30
Rom 12:19
(z) Eph 4:31
(a) Matt 6:31,34
(b) Luke 21:34; Rom 13:13
(c) Eccl 12:12; Eccl 2:22-23
(d) Isa 5:12
(e) Prov 15:1; Prov 12:18
(f) Exod 1:14; Isa 3:15
(g) Gal 5:15; Prov 23:29
(h) Num 35:16-17
(i) Exod 21:29
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
Questionable at best, It seems Mathew, Mark, and John didn't see it fit to insert that tidbit in their accounts, and doesn't Jesus say in Mathew that all who live by the sword shall perish by it?
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Living by and using one for self defense or for our natural right of resistance are two very separate things.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Heh, heh, heh. I would say that was using a rhetorical sword to cleave his similarity into distinctions.
MKEgal
Regular Member
.
We have any number of citizens who have been injured or killed by police breaking into the wrong house & shooting residents.
ETA:
and for a very good discussion of self-defense as it relates to the christian bible, try this
http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/
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Well, we have the guy who was murdered by police at Costco.Citizen said:
We have any number of citizens who have been injured or killed by police breaking into the wrong house & shooting residents.
ETA:
and for a very good discussion of self-defense as it relates to the christian bible, try this
http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
I understand that, I'm simply pointing out the fallacy in claiming that Christianity uniquely endorses ownership of arms based off of one verse taken out of its context.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
:lol: I see what you did there.
The context is that he was leaving and not going to be around to protect them, they were his followers and he told them to arm themselves, christian means a follower of christ....seems pretty christian to me. It was said right along with having money and food.
It's also interesting that they already had swords with them when Jesus asked if they had any, he didn't condemn them for that. He was also a Jew and there are many references to personal weapons being owned and kept in the "old testament".
Have you read Luke? Right in the beginning he tells you why many of the things were included in his account and not in others.
You didn't point out the fallacy what you did was compare it to another scripture taken out of context.
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
He also reproached Peter for using said swords in the garden. And said to turn the other cheek, and to allow the aggressor to take your cloak to avoid violence. He says this during the sermon on the mount (which Luke says happened on a plain btw)
Being most generous John MAYBE was an eyewitness to Christ. The other writers are all detached from Jesus himself. The Luke believed to have written that gospel was an accomplice of Paul, who himself never personally witnessed the life of Jesus. Yes to answer your question I have read Luke, and the other three. And got to hear the official party line on all four when I took confirmation classes to be confirmed into the Catholic Church.
With enough reading the bible can be stretched to mean whatever you want it to mean. It's used to argue for and against the death penalty, for and against wars of aggression, for and against eating meat.... Any issue you can think of someone can string together a semi credible biblical argument
amzbrady
Regular Member
A religion based on guns, can have Christian values, but I am not talking about adding to, or rewriting Christianity or the bible, I am talking about a whole new religion. that requires the open carry of a firearm just like Sikhs carrying a kirpan.
Really just looking for that loophole.
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Difdi
Regular Member
Technically Sikhs aren't required to carry knives, they're required to always be ready to oppose evil and it's hard to do that when unarmed. Knives are traditional, but the actual requirement is to be armed. Which means the little dummy knife they have to carry a lot of places because knives and guns are illegal is just silly. Still, it's symbolic if nothing else.
Sounds painful, like sticking your head in a wood chipper.
davidmcbeth
Banned
Wow... Okay I'm down
-Matt of Hillsboro OR-
As stated by Dirty Father Harry of course ... go ahead, make my daily bread
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Not unless you use context.....but do agree with what you are saying.
I am not a christian I am agnostic but have studied the bible thoroughly enough to make me know most organized religions don't follow the bible.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
No volunteers for martyr, eh? Alright, we can come back to that.
We're also going to need a set of holy days for celebration.
Of course, I recommend the birthdays of John Browning and Sam Colt. Any others?
Also, we'll want to establish quickly some feast traditions. For example, I'm partial to pulled-pork barbeque, and wouldn't object to a Spring feast based on that. With hush-puppies, deviled eggs, and cobbler. (Damn, I just made myself hungry.)
Separately, I'm not real big on wine, so I would like to see bourbon* included in any ceremonies.
*Yesterday's Washington Times ran an article on a distillers. Did you know that Kentucky's distillers have a combined 4.7 million barrels of bourbon aging right now? And, Kentucky only has a population of 4.2 million people. They have more barrels of whiskey than they have people!! I think they're gonna need help drinking all that. One of our first charitable works could be to go to Kentucky and help them get the whiskey barrel problem under control.
We're also going to need a set of holy days for celebration.
Of course, I recommend the birthdays of John Browning and Sam Colt. Any others?
Also, we'll want to establish quickly some feast traditions. For example, I'm partial to pulled-pork barbeque, and wouldn't object to a Spring feast based on that. With hush-puppies, deviled eggs, and cobbler. (Damn, I just made myself hungry.
)Separately, I'm not real big on wine, so I would like to see bourbon* included in any ceremonies.
*Yesterday's Washington Times ran an article on a distillers. Did you know that Kentucky's distillers have a combined 4.7 million barrels of bourbon aging right now? And, Kentucky only has a population of 4.2 million people. They have more barrels of whiskey than they have people!! I think they're gonna need help drinking all that. One of our first charitable works could be to go to Kentucky and help them get the whiskey barrel problem under control.
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
No volunteers for martyr, eh? Alright, we can come back to that.
We're also going to need a set of holy days for celebration.
Of course, I recommend the birthdays of John Browning and Sam Colt. Any others?
Also, we'll want to establish quickly some feast traditions. For example, I'm partial to pulled-pork barbeque, and wouldn't object to a Spring feast based on that. With hush-puppies, deviled eggs, and cobbler. (Damn, I just made myself hungry.
Separately, I'm not real big on wine, so I would like to see bourbon* included in any ceremonies.
*Yesterday's Washington Times ran an article on a distillers. Did you know that Kentucky's distillers have a combined 4.7 million barrels of bourbon aging right now? And, Kentucky only has a population of 4.2 million people. They have more barrels of whiskey than they have people!! I think they're gonna need help drinking all that. One of our first charitable works could be to go to Kentucky and help them get the whiskey barrel problem under control.
The five Pillars of open carry
1)Confession of the constitution
2)Regular practice of carry
3)Fasting during daylight hours of the SHOT show
4)Charitable giving of holsters and ammunition to those less fortunate
5)The Pilgrimage to kentucky at least once in their lifetime to sample that bourbon...
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
amzbrady
Regular Member
LOL, didn't catch that before. don't wanna be a skin less head. Wrong religion.
No volunteers for martyr, eh? Alright, we can come back to that.
We're also going to need a set of holy days for celebration.
Of course, I recommend the birthdays of John Browning and Sam Colt. Any others?
Also, we'll want to establish quickly some feast traditions. For example, I'm partial to pulled-pork barbeque, and wouldn't object to a Spring feast based on that. With hush-puppies, deviled eggs, and cobbler. (Damn, I just made myself hungry.
Separately, I'm not real big on wine, so I would like to see bourbon* included in any ceremonies.
*Yesterday's Washington Times ran an article on a distillers. Did you know that Kentucky's distillers have a combined 4.7 million barrels of bourbon aging right now? And, Kentucky only has a population of 4.2 million people. They have more barrels of whiskey than they have people!! I think they're gonna need help drinking all that. One of our first charitable works could be to go to Kentucky and help them get the whiskey barrel problem under control.
sounds good, maybe starbucks confectionals...
Whoa, now don't go overboard, don't need no fasting. :*P
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
I'm with MKEgal on this one:
And could we canonize as well? For starters, the members on this forum that have been (figuratively) flogged and (sometimes literally) beaten by an ailing justice system.
Yep. Birthdays of Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov (SKS and its derivatives), Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov (AK 47 and its derivatives), Eugene Stoner (AR 15 and derivatives), and of course, Sergei Ivanovich Mosin and brothers Émile and Léon Nagant (Mosin-Nagant, and its mods/derivatives; I include it here because it has been objectively
determined to be the most superior rifle of all time: http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)SNIP...Also, we'll want to establish quickly some feast traditions. For example, I'm partial to pulled-pork barbeque, and wouldn't object to a Spring feast based on that. With hush-puppies, deviled eggs, and cobbler. (Damn, I just made myself hungry.
Oh, I got it, I got it!: "...And there shall be TWO of every plate, and TWO of every platter, and likewise, TWO of every drink, that ye may always remember the 2nd, which doth keep thy liberty from those that would consume thee"...
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Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
Fixed two of them up.
6)Teaching of firearm basics to children older than 4 years of age, in preparation for their Daily Carry yet to come. :monkey
7)Reloading practice with thy family on the evenings between November 2 and November 8, to remember the days of ammo scarcity.
For converts:
8)Renouncement of thy life against the Cause of Liberty, and thy stance as a Gun-grabber. :lol: