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Thread: Your opinion on OC/police scenario

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    Your opinion on OC/police scenario

    Hey y'all...I'm just curious as to your thoughts on a scenario I ran into the other night. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a LEO. The other night at about 3 in the morning, I pull over a car for a legit MV violation (moving). Car pulls over and I make my approach to the driver's side window. I'm about to begin my shpeel when I look down and see the handgrip of a firearm sticking out of the right front pants pocket of the operator. He catches my eyes and with a terrified look on his face, he blurts out "I swear to God I have a permit but I don't have it on me!"

    If you were the cop here, how would you handle that situation?

    Again, this is just for kicks and giggles. Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyykid View Post
    Hey y'all...I'm just curious as to your thoughts on a scenario I ran into the other night. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a LEO. The other night at about 3 in the morning, I pull over a car for a legit MV violation (moving). Car pulls over and I make my approach to the driver's side window. I'm about to begin my shpeel when I look down and see the handgrip of a firearm sticking out of the right front pants pocket of the operator. He catches my eyes and with a terrified look on his face, he blurts out "I swear to God I have a permit but I don't have it on me!"

    If you were the cop here, how would you handle that situation?

    Again, this is just for kicks and giggles. Just curious.
    I'm a LEO in WA (open carry state. Permit required to carry in a motor vehicle)

    Imo, this isn't really an OC scenario. It's neither OC nor concealed. It's half/half, which is a lame way to carry a gun imo. Granted, he's in a car, but you get my point.

    One thing I have noticed in my travels is that people who have permits/who are lawfully carrying have always carried in a holster, or have it complete;y concealed in pocket. Most of the time I get a gun off an illegal carrier (felon w/firearm etc.) they have it either just stuck in a pocket, or their pants, etc. No holster. That's anecdotal, hardly scientific, but it is what it is.

    I think as a matter of good practice, if I am carrying a firearm and I am in contact with an LEO, I always let them know I have a firearm on me and that I am carrying on my badge. I know a bad guy who is carrying a firearm won't come out and divulge that he's carrying upfront (it's certainly never happened to me), so it will put the cop at ease and if he happens to see it printing etc. through my clothes and I haven't said that, he might be concerned (even though carrying concealed is not itself an indicator of criminal activity, you put the cop at ease ime if you let them know upfront you are carrying and in my travels, many people I have contacted who are carrying concealed tell me "hey, I'm carrying a gun on me" and I appreciate it)

    This guy is carrying a gun in a caddywumpus manner and where you would be able to see it. And he didn't let you know upon approach. So, imo he's acting imprudently. He's carrying such that an alert cop would see the butt sticking out of the pocket, which is kind of like carrying concealed... but not. He should have said right upfront when you walked up that he was carrying, since he would know it's quite likely you would notice it, so why not let you know upfront?. Not a legal requirement in any respect in my jurisdiction, just a courtesy I extend to cops and I appreciate when others do with me.

    In my state, permits are in WACIC, so I'd just ask him to put his hands on the steering wheel and to give me his name and date of birth so I can confirm he has a permit. Once I confirm it, we're cool. If he doesn't have a permit, it's only a misdemeanor in my state (unless he's a felon, etc.) but it's a misdemeanor AND he lied to me about it so I'd probably arrest him for it.

    Imo, it's also pretty irresponsible in states where a permit is required to carry without your permit on you. People carrying a gun, myself included, should be EXTRA responsible. It's a big responsibility, so you act accordingly - avoid confrontations with people over petty crap, be the bigger man and walk away if somebody starts harassing you, etc. Stuff like that.

    I wouldn't draw down or anything like that. As long as he complied with keeping his hands on the steering wheel until I could confirm his permit via radio, his hands on his steering wheel and my gun hand alongside my holstered firearm is plenty fine with me
    Last edited by PALO; 08-22-2013 at 03:40 AM.

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    Well, how did you handle it?

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    I am not a LEO but if I was in that situation I would probably make the person provide me with his DL, then ask him to put his hands on the wheel and keep them there while I stand right next to him and run his ID, then I would confirm they do in fact have a permit via the radio or any other means I have available. No valid permit=Arrest, has a permit but not carrying it? Well, it depends on person's compliance, attitude and the actual crime that I stopped him for, if all was "smooth and compliant" I would probably warn about not carrying a permit and then decide if I warn or ticket the traffic violation. Things, I would not do prior to doing the above barring any other actions from the driver: pull my gun and point at driver, remove driver from car, attempt to remove firearm from person.

    ETA: Probably would also radio for backup to stand by while checks are in progress...
    Last edited by brk913; 08-22-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    This guy is carrying a gun in a caddywumpus manner and where you would be able to see it. And he didn't let you know upon approach. So, imo he's acting imprudently. He's carrying such that an alert cop would see the butt sticking out of the pocket, which is kind of like carrying concealed... but not. He should have said right upfront when you walked up that he was carrying, since he would know it's quite likely you would notice it, so why not let you know upfront?.
    How more up front did you want the guy to be? Get out of his car and meet the officer at the back of the car in order to tell him in had a gun? Stick his head out the window backward as the cop approached?

    "Car pulls over and I make my approach to the driver's side window. I'm about to begin my shpeel when I look down and see the handgrip of a firearm sticking out of the right front pants pocket of the operator. He catches my eyes and with a terrified look on his face, he blurts out "I swear to God I have a permit but I don't have it on me!""

    Doesn't seem like it can be much sooner than that, as this was the very first thing uttered in the conversation. If I ever had to declare (haven't been pulled over with my sidearm yet), I'd probably wait for officer to get to my window, say hello, and then declare "I have a CPL and am currently carrying." [Per MI law, we must declare.]
    Last edited by jeffrey-r; 08-22-2013 at 09:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyykid View Post
    "I swear to God I have a permit but I don't have it on me!" If you were the cop here, how would you handle that situation.
    Depends on the state. In Wisconsin failure to present the license document may not even be a forfeiture.

    Wisc. Stats. ss 175.60(17) PENALTIES. (a) Any person who violates sub. (2g) (b) or (c) may be required to forfeit not more than $25, except that the person shall be exempted from the forfeiture if the person presents, within 48 hours, his or her license document or out−of−state license and photographic identification to the law enforcement agency that employs the requesting law enforcement officer. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/doc.../ch.%20175.pdf
    Confirmation of licensensure is one of the three legitimate requests for data.
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    Your opinion on OC/police scenario

    Issue your violation and move on. You came to do a job, do it and move on. The gun has nothing to do with anything.

    If you really want to cover bases, use his drivers license to look for a valid permit. Then move on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    use his drivers license to look for a valid permit. Then move on.
    The state law says you have to "carry the permit on you", CT has no stop and identify law, NO WHERE IN THE LAW DOES IT SAY THAT AN OFFICER CAN ASK FOR A PERMIT AL ALL,

    Sec. 29-35. Carrying of pistol or revolver without permit prohibited. Exceptions
    (b) The holder of a permit issued pursuant to section 29-28 shall carry such permit upon one's person while carrying such pistol or revolver.


    DOUGLAS, J., Dissenting Opinion
    SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
    ________________________________________
    407 U.S. 143
    Adams v. Williams
    CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
    ________________________________________
    No. 70-283 Argued: April 10, 1972 --- Decided: June 12, 1972
    ________________________________________
    MR. JUSTICE DOUGLAS, with whom MR. JUSTICE MARSHALL concurs, dissenting.
    My views have been stated in substance by Judge Friendly, dissenting, in the Court of Appeals. 436 F.2d 30, 35. Connecticut allows its citizens to carry weapons, concealed or otherwise, at will, provided they have a permit. Conn.Gen.Stat.Rev. §§ 295, 29-38. Connecticut law gives its police no authority to frisk a person for a permit. …
    .




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    Hi Lucky,

    First, I am not a cop. Palo pretty much covered a good response, and I agree with it. What you did not indicate in your OP was if you were alone, or with a partner when you initially made the stop.

    If I was alone, I would have immediately called for backup after seeing the pistol. I assume before you even got of your vehicle you called in the plate on the car you were stopping. A person carrying a pistol without a holster is bad vibe number one (with his "gat" dangling irresponsibly from a pocket). Once the guy noticed that you saw his weapon, he gets defensive and visibly agitated. Good guys don't get agitated knowing they are fully legal. Bad vibe number two.

    Three AM is bad vibe number three.

    My thoughts at that point (as a reasonable man) would be that this is a bad guy.

    Since it was a valid motor vehicle stop, you have the right to demand license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance in your State. With that information, you can also verify if this person was properly legal for pistol carry, and take appropriate action based on information returned to you.

    I wouldn't have asked for his physical documentation until I had a partner there (backup), watching him closely when he was asked to produce his three documents. Until backup arrived, I would have just made sure he stayed in the vehicle with hands on the wheel, and perhaps called in his name and DOB (over your handheld walkie) if you had asked him for it while you wait.

    If this guy did come back as "legal", I would be VERY surprised. I would then write him up for the initial stop without a second thought just for the unsafe mode of carry, as well as giving him a verbal lecture on the basics of firearm safety.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Tactical9mm; 08-22-2013 at 01:23 PM.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. -Hávamál 38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactical9mm View Post
    SNIP I would then write him up for the initial stop without a second thought just for the unsafe mode of carry, as well as giving him a verbal lecture on the basics of firearm safety.
    Because he exercised an aspect of his basic human right to self-defense in a manner you disagree with, while hurting no one else, you would write him up for a moving violation apparently executed safely, perhaps even a very minor moving violation, and put points on his license and raise his insurance rates?

    Really?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Well, the OP might post back with how he did handle it .... but with me MV violations are civil matters in CT (although adjudicated via criminal procedures & rules).

    And with all civil matters, an injured party must be present ... since no accident was noted, no stop would have been made...I would not be a revenue enhancer for the gov't....if that's all the work they got for me, I would quit and raise chickens...honest labor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because he exercised an aspect of his basic human right to self-defense in a manner you disagree with, while hurting no one else, you would write him up for a moving violation apparently executed safely, perhaps even a very minor moving violation, and put points on his license and raise his insurance rates?

    Really?
    Really. The guy is a violator to begin with, and stupid enough to do it with me watching him in nearby proximity. He is the one adding points to his license (assuming CT has such a system), and raising his insurance rates, not the cop who is writing him a ticket for his behavior.

    Personally, I have a zero tolerance for anyone that is stupid enough to carry a pistol on his person UNSAFELY without a holster, or some other method that covers the trigger area. This is how an ND happens, and how potential bad things happen to bystanders that just happen to be in the same area as the moron carrying that way. So yes it would factor in with my decision to write the violator up.

    I get the feeling that's not how this encounter ended. I think the guy was not legal and got the bracelet, and free chauffeur treatment. We will soon see.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. -Hávamál 38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactical9mm View Post
    Really. The guy is a violator to begin with, and stupid enough to do it with me watching him in nearby proximity. He is the one adding points to his license (assuming CT has such a system), and raising his insurance rates, not the cop who is writing him a ticket for his behavior.

    Personally, I have a zero tolerance for anyone that is stupid enough to carry a pistol on his person UNSAFELY without a holster, or some other method that covers the trigger area. This is how an ND happens, and how potential bad things happen to bystanders that just happen to be in the same area as the moron carrying that way. So yes it would factor in with my decision to write the violator up.

    I get the feeling that's not how this encounter ended. I think the guy was not legal and got the bracelet, and free chauffeur treatment. We will soon see.
    Who are you to have zero tolerance for someone carrying a pistol on his person less safely than you accept, in his own car, alone, at night?

    Lots of people carry in a pocket without a holster. Just because it is less safe than carrying in a holster doesn't mean its unsafe in all cases with all weapons. Yours is two-valued logic that fails to consider degrees. And, is willing to impose its own failings on others.

    Sheesh, what arrogance.

    And, all that penalty rather than just help the guy out in case he doesn't know--tell him a holster is safer. No, you'd rather jump to the conclusion he's deliberately doing something unsafe, and penalize him by hitting him in a totally unrelated area. Yeah! That makes sense! /sarcasm
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-22-2013 at 05:04 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    yeah I mean since the OP has left us to guess what kind of weapon it was then I have a hard time condemning someone for their choice of carry method. While I do agree with Rich that the gun has nothing to do with the traffic stop, the driver gave information that gives the LEO probable cause to investigate further. By telling the officer that he didn't have his permit on him that to me justifies at least calling it in to verify that he does in fact have a permit then reminding him that he is required to keep it on him when carrying. As someone who can't leave my house without my permit or Drivers license I do question why anyone would take the chance of forgetting their permit and not put it someplace where they always know they will have it with them.

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    Having a hard time with this, as Virginia just changed not carrying a CHP when carrying concealed from a misdemeanor to a civil offense. But if the handgun grip was sticking out of the top of the pocket and the OP could determine that it was a handgun, as opposed to a freight train or a bicycle or anything else, it would have been considered OC here in Virginia.

    But I know just enough about CT law to understand that carry requires a permission slip. I do not know if the offense of carrying without a permission slip is a misdemeanor or a felony - which would control how the incident could be handled. A misdmeanant can usually be/is required to be released on a summons unless there is reason to believe they will not show up for court or will not stop committing the offense.

    So the first question is - could you release him on a summons? If it was permissable to do so I would imagine it would be the preferred course of action. You know - following the law and all that stuff.

    The second question is, what does CT law/your LEA policy say you should do about the handgun? If there is no requirement/mandate to sieze it then I see no reason for doing so. Among other things, it avoids having to deal with extra paperwork logging it into evidence. Again, amazingly, following the rules and all that stuff. And yes, I know that sometimes the law/policy says you have to do things that are really bass akwards and create extra paperwork for no really useful reason - but a LEO has to do what a LEO is required to do.

    And that's the point - what are you required to do in order to uphold the law? Another way of saying that is by asking what advantage you and society/the community get by going beyond the baseline requirements?

    stay safe.
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    So how did you handle it? OP will surely deliver.

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    I don't know too many LEOs that wouldn't secure the gun BEFORE performing the permit check. Having been pulled over while transporting under PJ law I appreciated the statie taking the case back to the hood of his cruiser. Granted, it was in a bag on my person, by necessity. That extra measure of safety for HIM means an extra measure of safety for ME. Got off with a warning.

    Not saying he should disarm every permittee, but when someone is obviously playing loosey goosey with his gun, it's best to have things secured while you fill out paperwork.

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    Must have permit on your person in CT. Infraction...under $100 fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because he exercised an aspect of his basic human right to self-defense in a manner you disagree with, while hurting no one else, you would write him up for a moving violation apparently executed safely, perhaps even a very minor moving violation, and put points on his license and raise his insurance rates?

    Really?
    you don't like it? call your legislator.

    i am perfectly OK with LEO using their discretion to issue/not-issue citations. if the guy is obviously irresponsible/stupid, there should be as much documentation as possible so that when he REALLY screws up everybody will know and and be able to take appropriate action. letting these guys slide on a stack of violations just invites monday-morning quarterbacking when this guy plows into a bus stop or has a negligent discharge.

    this perp doesn't sound like a brain surgeon on his way to the hospital to save a life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT Barfly View Post
    you don't like it? call your legislator.

    i am perfectly OK with LEO using their discretion to issue/not-issue citations. if the guy is obviously irresponsible/stupid, there should be as much documentation as possible so that when he REALLY screws up everybody will know and and be able to take appropriate action. letting these guys slide on a stack of violations just invites monday-morning quarterbacking when this guy plows into a bus stop or has a negligent discharge.

    this perp doesn't sound like a brain surgeon on his way to the hospital to save a life.
    What's a legislator got to do with it? You were willing to cite him on the moving violation for unsafe (sic) carry. Meaning, penalize him for an activity that is not illegal, meaning mete out punishment for a non-crime. How is a legislator going to prevent that?

    And, did you really just say that you want legislators to dictate carry methods? Really? On a pro-gun, pro-freedom forum? Really?
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-23-2013 at 09:37 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
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    If the dude has a valid permit issued to him, let him go after citing him for the moving violation. Then, follow him home and raid his fridge.....after he shows you his permit.

    If not, five lashes before the mast. Then, take him home, raid his fridge, and then down to the station.

    It is CT, so ya gotta have a permit on ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactical9mm View Post
    Really. The guy is a violator to begin with, and stupid enough to do it with me watching him in nearby proximity. He is the one adding points to his license (assuming CT has such a system), and raising his insurance rates, not the cop who is writing him a ticket for his behavior.

    Personally, I have a zero tolerance for anyone that is stupid enough to carry a pistol on his person UNSAFELY without a holster, or some other method that covers the trigger area. This is how an ND happens, and how potential bad things happen to bystanders that just happen to be in the same area as the moron carrying that way. So yes it would factor in with my decision to write the violator up.

    I get the feeling that's not how this encounter ended. I think the guy was not legal and got the bracelet, and free chauffeur treatment. We will soon see.
    "Without a holster" isn't automatically 'unsafely.'
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT Barfly View Post
    Must have permit on your person in CT. Infraction...under $100 fine.
    Not an event worth your stated 'don't issue.'
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    What's a legislator got to do with it? You were willing to cite him on the moving violation for unsafe (sic) carry. Meaning, penalize him for an activity that is not illegal, meaning mete out punishment for a non-crime. How is a legislator going to prevent that?

    And, did you really just say that you want legislators to dictate carry methods? Really? On a pro-gun, pro-freedom forum? Really?
    i didn't say anything of the sort.

    you don't know what the moving violation was, the OP stated it was a fair tag. we have to take it as written.

    call your legislator if you want to legalize the moving violation or take away officer discretion...but don't complain that an LEO holds a guy who lacks common sense to the letter of the law actually violated. there's probably nothing ambiguous about the moving violation. he didn't bang the guy for pocket carry. it sounds like you want the cop to look the other way on the mover BECAUSE the guy was carrying and disclosed it. makes no sense.
    Last edited by CT Barfly; 08-23-2013 at 10:19 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CT Barfly View Post
    i didn't say anything of the sort.

    you don't know what the moving violation was, the OP stated it was a fair tag. we have to take it as written.

    call your legislator if you want to legalize the moving violation or take away officer discretion...but don't complain that an LEO holds a guy who lacks common sense to the letter of the law actually violated. there's probably nothing ambiguous about the moving violation. he didn't bang the guy for pocket carry. it sounds like you want the cop to look the other way on the mover BECAUSE the guy was carrying and disclosed it. makes no sense.
    <raucous laughter>
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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