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Thread: Feelings vs Rights, Amerika in 20 years?

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    Regular Member 2OLD2W8's Avatar
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    Feelings vs Rights, Amerika in 20 years?

    My legalese leaves a lot to be desired, but I think you can see what I'm inferring.


    Any physical action or speech committed intentionally or inadvertently by any legal U.S. Citizen may be restricted if the feelings of the aggrieved party are impaired or distressed in any manner, whether perceived or real in nature. Should the aggrieved party retain the status of a disenfranchised person, the offending party may be charged with willfully committing a hate crime.

    I'm getting more cynical as the years fly by and I think this is possible in the next 20 years. I hope I'm dead wrong for the sake of my descendants.




    2OLD2W8
    Last edited by 2OLD2W8; 08-24-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    “We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    There is no need to spell it out - especially not in the very overt way you have attempted to do so.

    It's all in the interpretation of existing laws that seek to ensure that while we may have all been created equally we certainly are not treated equally.

    Your proposed legislation moves us from a rule of law to the rule by mob action - if enough people "feel" aggreived they must perforce be aggreived.

    I'm holding out that when it comes time for push to come to shove someone who retains the ability to understand basic concepts understands that there is no inherent (God-given, if you incline to that language) right to not feel all butt-hurted. Which is good, because my first inclination in performing a cognitive realignment procedure is to create a physical hurt in the butt area, to be followed closely in time by creating a physical hurt in the cranial region. Thank goodness I have an internal locus of control that stops me from acting on first inclinations without considering the consequences and deciding if I am willing to accept them as opposed to determining a different path to accomplishing my goals.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member 2OLD2W8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Which is good, because my first inclination in performing a cognitive realignment procedure is to create a physical hurt in the butt area, to be followed closely in time by creating a physical hurt in the cranial region.
    stay safe.
    I probably should have prefaced my post with... Based on what I have seen and heard throughout this land for the last 20 years. I post this hypothetical legal statute for conversational purposes only. I did not intend for the post to be so vague as to infer that what I wrote was what I believe and propose. Sorry for any confusion.

    Skidmark, I will gladly assist you with your cognitive realignment procedure!
    “We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand

    "free people ought...to be armed." In so doing we grasp the larger lesson that the ability to defend ourselves is part and parcel to our freedom. George Washington , January 7, 1790

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2OLD2W8 View Post
    My legalese leaves a lot to be desired, but I think you can see what I'm inferring.


    Any physical action or speech committed intentionally or inadvertently by any legal U.S. Citizen may be restricted if the feelings of the aggrieved party are impaired or distressed in any manner, whether perceived or real in nature. Should the aggrieved party retain the status of a disenfranchised person, the offending party may be charged with willfully committing a hate crime.

    I'm getting more cynical as the years fly by and I think this is possible in the next 20 years. I hope I'm dead wrong for the sake of my descendants.
    2OLD2W8
    Perception is the reality of the one who perceives. The protections offered by the SYG laws are good examples of that concept. Pax...
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Perception is the reality of the one who perceives. The protections offered by the SYG laws are good examples of that concept. Pax...
    That perception is usually presented with the caveat of what a reasonable person similarly situated would believe the situation to present.

    In other words, just saying you felt threatened is not going to cut it. You need to convince the trier of facts that any other reasonable person finding themself in the same situation woluld also feel threatened.

    There are some folks here on OCDO who seem to feel that the mere presence of a police officer presents a threat that would support responding with lethal force. If not for the reasonable person caveat they might in fact be tempted to in fact use lethal force.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    There are some folks here on OCDO who seem to feel that the mere presence of a police officer presents a threat that would support responding with lethal force.

    stay safe.
    What? If so, then people are posting from prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    That perception is usually presented with the caveat of what a reasonable person similarly situated would believe the situation to present.

    In other words, just saying you felt threatened is not going to cut it. You need to convince the trier of facts that any other reasonable person finding themself in the same situation woluld also feel threatened.

    There are some folks here on OCDO who seem to feel that the mere presence of a police officer presents a threat that would support responding with lethal force. If not for the reasonable person caveat they might in fact be tempted to in fact use lethal force.

    stay safe.

    That one is way over the top, Skid. You're saying we have unreasonable would-be cop-killers as members. Your "seems" and "mights" aren't going to cover up your actual accusation. Lets have some names and links to posts.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That one is way over the top, Skid. You're saying we have unreasonable would-be cop-killers as members. Your "seems" and "mights" aren't going to cover up your actual accusation. Lets have some names and links to posts.
    Sorry, but thanks in part to the actions of the moderators and administrators, reported posts have been edited or deleted. As for those who skirt the edge of the assertion - again reporting their posts is the appropriate method of dealing with them, as opposed to naming them publically.

    There are times when you either trust what I have said, trust what I have said because you have seen/read similar, or you write off my assertion as hyperebole. This might be one of those times.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sorry, but thanks in part to the actions of the moderators and administrators, reported posts have been edited or deleted. As for those who skirt the edge of the assertion - again reporting their posts is the appropriate method of dealing with them, as opposed to naming them publically.

    There are times when you either trust what I have said, trust what I have said because you have seen/read similar, or you write off my assertion as hyperebole. This might be one of those times.

    stay safe.
    OK. I'll accept that.

    If you see another such post, PM me. I'd like to know too who needs watching.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I have seen posts like those of which skid speaks. I'll be sure to quote them for you when I see them.

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    I'm not as cynical as the OP. In fact, not cynical at all. Two areas where we trump every nation on earth THAT I AM AWARE OF - are speech rights and firearm rights. As far as the latter goes, it has been getting better and better - landmark court decisions in our favor, more and more states turning into shall issue. Several - constitutional carry. Some scary unconstitutional speech laws, like my states overbroad unconstitutional cyberstalking law, but same laws WHEN applied have been getting struck down.


    FIRE is helping to quell censorious speech codes on college campuses. And their win rate is wonderful.

    I'm not happy about obamaco unitary executive rubbish, murderdroning US citizens /wo due cause, etc.

    But overall, I think we are doing pretty well, war on drugs, and bong hits for jesus case (oh, and RAICH) notwithstanding

    Also, citizen initiatives are getting great laws passed on state level. My state has legalized marijuana. It's awesome to respond to a residence as a police officer and seeing a bong sitting on the living room table and nobody caring.

    With the intertoobs, we've never had greater access to speech, and access to promoting our own speech, political commentary etc. as well as youtube to post videos. It's a more radical freedom advance than the gutenberg press. We have access to speech from all over the nation, from the North Korean propaganda websites, to local newspapers all over this awesome country.

    In my state, search and seizure law has continuously, o n the whole, been more and more restrictive of state power - we no longer search vehicles incident to arrest, for example, like in most states.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    I'm not as cynical as the OP. In fact, not cynical at all. Two areas where we trump every nation on earth THAT I AM AWARE OF - are speech rights and firearm rights. As far as the latter goes, it has been getting better and better - landmark court decisions in our favor, more and more states turning into shall issue. Several - constitutional carry. Some scary unconstitutional speech laws, like my states overbroad unconstitutional cyberstalking law, but same laws WHEN applied have been getting struck down.


    FIRE is helping to quell censorious speech codes on college campuses. And their win rate is wonderful.

    I'm not happy about obamaco unitary executive rubbish, murderdroning US citizens /wo due cause, etc.

    But overall, I think we are doing pretty well, war on drugs, and bong hits for jesus case (oh, and RAICH) notwithstanding

    Also, citizen initiatives are getting great laws passed on state level. My state has legalized marijuana. It's awesome to respond to a residence as a police officer and seeing a bong sitting on the living room table and nobody caring.

    With the intertoobs, we've never had greater access to speech, and access to promoting our own speech, political commentary etc. as well as youtube to post videos. It's a more radical freedom advance than the gutenberg press. We have access to speech from all over the nation, from the North Korean propaganda websites, to local newspapers all over this awesome country.

    In my state, search and seizure law has continuously, o n the whole, been more and more restrictive of state power - we no longer search vehicles incident to arrest, for example, like in most states.
    The mere fact FIRE has to exist shows the huge problem.

    Executive powers has continually increased no matter the president this isn't a step forward and is something rather huge to speak of almost dismissively.

    Raids have increased on legal medical dispensaries, we just had one in Tacoma, these raids don't happen usually without the help of local LEA's. Bong hits for Jesus case and Raich are there so until those are overturned and judges and prosecutors and cops stop using them it won't get better.

    In our state didn't Dawson take a recent hit? Pretext stops are getting watered down. Yes past judges have upheld our constitution better the ones we have there do not, Richards was the lone dissent in many decisions was accused by one judge that he believed in the "fallacy of fixed words" when he cited the law.

    Why does it take an initiative and a law to get cops to not care about a bong, oh and many still do care hence why they then move a lot of it willingly to the hands of the feds, doesn't hurt that they receive more ill gotten gains when it's moved to a federal level.

    Yep private individuals are being more active in exposing what already exists it is making some behave better, but the gov don't like these tools so they have ruled that our emails and electronic communications are not private.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The mere fact FIRE has to exist shows the huge problem.

    Executive powers has continually increased no matter the president this isn't a step forward and is something rather huge to speak of almost dismissively.

    Raids have increased on legal medical dispensaries, we just had one in Tacoma, these raids don't happen usually without the help of local LEA's. Bong hits for Jesus case and Raich are there so until those are overturned and judges and prosecutors and cops stop using them it won't get better.

    In our state didn't Dawson take a recent hit? Pretext stops are getting watered down. Yes past judges have upheld our constitution better the ones we have there do not, Richards was the lone dissent in many decisions was accused by one judge that he believed in the "fallacy of fixed words" when he cited the law.

    Why does it take an initiative and a law to get cops to not care about a bong, oh and many still do care hence why they then move a lot of it willingly to the hands of the feds, doesn't hurt that they receive mre ill gotten gains when it's moved to a federal level.

    Yep private individuals are being more active in exposing what already exists it is making some behave better, but the gov don't like these tools so they have ruled that our emails and electronic communications are not private.
    You concentrate on the negative. I concentrate on the positive. Both are out there. Like I said, Im not a cynic

    as for the bong thing, I haven;'t made a misdemeanor MJ arrest in a long time. Many cops didn't care about bongs even before it was legalized, but the drug war is NOT the fault of cops. We don't make (stupid) law. Legislators do. Blame them, not us. THEY are the reason some cops care(d) about bongs. Without laws against it, it would be irrelevant.

    And again, you'll concentrate on the negative, I'll concerntrate on the positive.

    fwiw, I m not aware of Ladson being "watered down". Numerous cases since Ladson have helped define what is pretext and what isn;'t. I think the WA courts have done a pretty good job. The problem with outlawing pretext stops is you inject a subjective element into the analysis, which has always been problematic . But given the no pretext thang, the case law I have read since Ladson has done a great job of applying it.

    We are lucky in WA state to have a constitution that protects PRIVACY specifically, the federal one does not (not in that wording).

    Again, I;m not a cynic.

    Life does NOT suck. It's pretty awesome. It's even more awesome in WA - right to privacy, no income tax, shal issue CCW, open carry w/o permit etc. We have some pretty sweet freedoms here.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    You concentrate on the negative. I concentrate on the positive. Both are out there. Like I said, Im not a cynic

    as for the bong thing, I haven;'t made a misdemeanor MJ arrest in a long time. Many cops didn't care about bongs even before it was legalized, but the drug war is NOT the fault of cops. We don't make (stupid) law. Legislators do. Blame them, not us. THEY are the reason some cops care(d) about bongs. Without laws against it, it would be irrelevant.

    And again, you'll concentrate on the negative, I'll concerntrate on the positive.

    fwiw, I m not aware of Ladson being "watered down". Numerous cases since Ladson have helped define what is pretext and what isn;'t. I think the WA courts have done a pretty good job. The problem with outlawing pretext stops is you inject a subjective element into the analysis, which has always been problematic . But given the no pretext thang, the case law I have read since Ladson has done a great job of applying it.

    We are lucky in WA state to have a constitution that protects PRIVACY specifically, the federal one does not (not in that wording).

    Again, I;m not a cynic.

    Life does NOT suck. It's pretty awesome. It's even more awesome in WA - right to privacy, no income tax, shal issue CCW, open carry w/o permit etc. We have some pretty sweet freedoms here.
    First off don't take my criticizing of the state as a lack of pride in the things they get right, I am proud about many things of the state I was born in.

    And then, duh we don't concentrate on the chains that are not attached to us. Plus what I did is show that the positives you mentioned are not that sound from the states point of view.

    Right to privacy-first off there is no "right to privacy" there is property rights one Washington is eroding very very fast.

    Have you gotten a call from a government agency telling you they are going to spend three days in your house going through your computer and your records? I have...they decided not to when I told them I have guns I carry guns and I will not put them away because they come to my house.

    I pay a large amount of my "income", I prefer wages since there is an SCOTUS decison that hasn't been overturned that defines income as corporate profit, into taxes our state has one of the highest rates of taxes, just because its not in the form of an "income" tax. We do have shall issue CPL after you submit for your government checks, lets make it no permit necessary. Yes we can OC w/o permit but don't get into your car without your CPL or on a bicycle. We do have some sweet freedoms but they are not ours here they are everyone's everywhere we are born with them the state doesn't grant me these freedoms although they like to believe they do.

    I have skeptic tendencies not cynic.

    I don't have a general distrust of people, matter of fact my anarchal and libertarian philosophy is one of a general trust of humans acting as individuals in a society, the more I study history and look at the problems that do exist today the overwhelming majority of societal problems are because of our government, I will do everything I can to limit that, if that irritates some people's sense of statism for good so be it.


    P.S. Life is good, it also has it's up and downs and worries and can always be better, at no time has any "government" been the best solution or couldn't have been more liberal.
    There are many too who don't make a living off of money stolen from others and will have a nice comfy retirement on the continual theft, those who have to struggle every day to look for another client to compete with others for the next job, who has been forced to live month to month or have little to save for their elderly years because a huge portion of their earnings are stolen.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 08-25-2013 at 09:55 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Feelings vs Rights, Amerika in 20 years?

    I routinely see folks here making a fundamental logical mistake.

    Just because a word has one definition does not preclude it having others.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    That perception is usually presented with the caveat of what a reasonable person similarly situated would believe the situation to present.

    In other words, just saying you felt threatened is not going to cut it. You need to convince the trier of facts that any other reasonable person finding themself in the same situation woluld also feel threatened.

    There are some folks here on OCDO who seem to feel that the mere presence of a police officer presents a threat that would support responding with lethal force. If not for the reasonable person caveat they might in fact be tempted to in fact use lethal force.

    stay safe.
    The "reasonable and prudent man" principal applies to almost all laws regarding personal interactions. The first sentence in my previous post represents the psychological aspect of "perception" in general, while the second sentence is merely an example of how perception may influence/dictate our actions while the "prudent man" awaits quietly in the wings. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I routinely see folks here making a fundamental logical mistake.

    Just because a word has one definition does not preclude it having others.
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

    Res judicata facit ex albo nigrum, ex nigro album, ex curvo rectum, ex recto curvum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    <snip> Which is good, because my first inclination in performing a cognitive realignment procedure is to create a physical hurt in the butt area, to be followed closely in time by creating a physical hurt in the cranial region. <snip>
    Uh, you gunna be around in 20 years to put a hurt on some butts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I routinely see folks here making a fundamental logical mistake.

    Just because a word has one definition does not preclude it having others.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

    And I routinely see some make fundamental logical mistake of not using the context to grasp at how the word is being used.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Lame response. No matter. Moving on.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Lame response. No matter. Moving on.
    LOL.....maybe but truthful.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    fwiw, throughout the (short, comparatively speaking) history of this great nation, there have always been those who think we are just scant years away from imploding, from fascists taking over, from losing our way, etc etc.

    And it never DOES happen. We both can acknowledge there is a lot of messed up stuff going on, especially with the bushco and now obamaco unitary executive rubbish, as well as the ever expanding commerce clause that lets the feds get their grimy hands into stuff they shouldn't be involved with.

    I just think overall, we are doing AWESOME and I am proud to be an american, and I consider myself lucky to have been born here. I have done a lot of traveling, and a lot of other countries appeal to me... some even have pretty cool systems of govt. But, for example, when I look at the kind of crap the European Union pulls, as well as their grand stances on a host of issues (and god knows they are very anti-RKBA), I just thank god again, I live here.

    I mean, I love france, I speak fluent french, and they have a great culture(s), bitchen waves!, great food , etc. But... the socialism, their justice system etc. ? blech

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Lame response. No matter. Moving on.
    http://youtu.be/mo6QeBmXn18?t=4s
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    SNIP
    I just think overall, we are doing AWESOME and I am proud to be an american, and I consider myself lucky to have been born here. I have done a lot of traveling, and a lot of other countries appeal to me... some even have pretty cool systems of govt. But, for example, when I look at the kind of crap the European Union pulls, as well as their grand stances on a host of issues (and god knows they are very anti-RKBA), I just thank god again, I live here.

    I mean, I love france, I speak fluent french, and they have a great culture(s), bitchen waves!, great food , etc. But... the socialism, their justice system etc. ? blech
    So, you're proud to live in a nation where the elected representatives believe it's okay to commit murder in your name?
    Proud to live in nation where the elected officials believe it's okay to violate your rights?
    Proud to live where you have to be sexually molested to fly?
    Proud to live around people who are so ignorant that they don't know what form of government that our founding fathers created?
    Proud to live where it's okay for government thugs to violate your rights and then if they get caught pay you off with the money of others?
    Proud to live where most everyone wants to enslave their neighbor through socialism and other government 'good works'?

    Explain to me again what you're proud of.

    If that is something to be proud of, no wonder you're a police officer (cop).
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 08-26-2013 at 12:05 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    So, you're proud to live in a nation where the elected representatives believe it's okay to commit murder in your name?
    Proud to live in nation where the elected officials believe it's okay to violate your rights?
    Proud to live where you have to be sexually molested to fly?
    Proud to live around people who are so ignorant that they don't know what form of government that our founding fathers created?
    Proud to live where it's okay for government thugs to violate your rights and then if they get caught pay you off with the money of others?
    Proud to live where most everyone wants to enslave their neighbor through socialism and other government 'good works'?

    Explain to me again what you're proud of.

    If that is something to be proud of, no wonder you're a police officer (cop).
    Just like the vast majority of americans (per polling data), imo the good stuff VASTLY outweighs the bad stuff. I can think of a lot more stuff than the stuff you mentioned that is bad (setting aside the problematic nature of your claims, e.g. the first one. That's true of SOME elected officials. It certainly aint true of Ron Paul).

    Much of what you say is rubbish imo. It is not "okay" for "government thugs": to violate my or other's rights. And imo, with some exception (and I am sure we are going to disagree on this), the system does a PRETTY GOOD JOB in holding them accountable for misconduct.

    I've flown numerous times ex-post 911 and in none of those instances did TSA sexually molest me fwiw.

    Again, there's tons of stuff WRONG with America but imo there's WAY MORE stuff we are doing right, and your last line is rubbish. MOST americans are proud of being americans. It has nothing to do with being a cop

    However, AS a cop, I get to see a lot of stuff others will never see. I see people at their best (heroic, selfless, etc.) AND at their worst, but I know the former greatly outweighs the latter. So, in THAT respect, I guess being a cop is relevant... I see people in much more varied circumstances than noncops do, I see the justice system in much more detail, also

    Just remember, you are in a TINY niche of the population in regards to your views about America.

    I stand with the american people, and again - based on what I have seen in 20 yrs of police work, the average american joe is doing a damn fine job, too. It's an incredibly rewarding job and it gives you a lot of insight into people, since you deal with them, so often, at emotional etc. extremes, under extreme duress, sorrow, etc. I see great things in the american people.

    But I'll say one thing. Of the things you mention that ARE true, no I am not proud of them. That's a strawman. I said there's a lot of crap I am not proud of, murderdroning and unitary executive power being two I ALREADY MENTIONED

    The bad stuff doesn't define us, imo.

    And I stand with the vast majority of americans in being proud of my country WHILE doing what I can (primarily at the local level) to effect positive change.

    Only 3% of americans are only a little proud of america and only ONE PERCENT are "not proud at all"

    I am sure the cynics etc. will attribute that to "dumb merkuns" not understanding why we are so awful , but of course YOU are privy to stuff and are better edumacated on america, therefore the not proud of america tiny niche group will justify their position often by calling the public ignorat/misinformed, etc. I recognize the american public is not politically wonky, but I also know there are tons of people who are, myself included , who are fiercely proud of this great nation.

    Fwiw, would there be any nation you would prefer to live in/that would fill you with pride?

    cheers

    Poll follows

    Most Americans are proud to be so, according to a new poll.

    Conducted by Gallup, the survey found that 57 percent of respondents consider themselves "extremely proud" to be United States citizens, while another 28 percent say they are "very proud."

    By contrast, only 3 percent of respondents indicated they are "only a little proud" to be American, and a mere 1 percent say they are "not at all proud."

    The figures indicate that – despite the constant squabbling on Capitol Hill and Congress's historically low approval ratings – an overwhelming percentage of Americans haven't let Washington's struggles disturb their pride in being a part of the world's longest-running democracy.

    Indeed, the 85 percent figure – a combination of the "extremely proud" and "very proud" groups – has been fairly consistent for more than a decade. The number reached a peak of 92 percent in 2002, and dropped to a nadir of 81 percent in 2007, but has remained largely steady since Gallup first posed the question in 2001.

    That same optimism hasn't followed another question Gallup has posed over the years related to the state of national affairs. When asked how the signers of the Declaration of Independence would feel about "the way the United States has turned out," 71 percent said the Founding Fathers would be "disappointed," while only 27 percent thought they'd be "pleased."

    Those numbers mark a dramatic change from 12 years ago, when 54 percent said the signers would be pleased and 42 percent guessed they'd be disappointed.



    Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...#ixzz2d5phvAvz
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    Last edited by PALO; 08-26-2013 at 12:35 PM.

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