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Thread: A questions about Open Carry

  1. #1
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    A questions about Open Carry

    I am new here and decided that since I can't find my answer elsewhere I should come here.

    So onto the question, are flintlocks illegal to open carry loaded/unloaded? You know the ones that are 1 shot, black powder and ball and all. The ones that can't be converted and are only a flintlock, both pistol and long rifle included. I wouldn't waste your guys time with this if I could find the actual bills for both AB144 and the one for the Rifle open carry ban, but for some reason I can't. If you don't know the answer yourself, and know where to find the bills so I can read through it I would gladly appreciate that, or any bill that limits the flintlocks (if there even are any? Or is this a Federal level law?)

    Hope you guys can help out! (although I can't see them being able to ban the weapons that we were 100% absolutely guaranteed in the 2A, I would rather ask then ruin the reputation of OC'ers and possibly make more restrictions on us.)

    And for those of you who want to know why I ask, any means to protect myself and my family/friends is better than just carrying around my blade, even if it is a one shot flintlock.

  2. #2
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    It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on
    any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.(Penal Code §
    12031(a)(1).)
    A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to,
    the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to
    the firearm. A muzzle-loading firearm is deemed loaded when it is capped or primed and has a
    powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    (Penal Code § 12031(g).)
    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

    The lock mechanism is immaterial. Matchlocks are just as illegal.

    http://oag.ca.gov/firearms
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-24-2013 at 06:18 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
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    While i have yet to go through every law, I did a fast search (Ctrl+F) with "Muzzle" "Flintlock" and "Musket" The only other law that came up was

    The general prohibition in this section does not include antique firearms. An antique
    firearm is defined as any firearm that was manufactured in or before 1898 and is not designed
    or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition. This
    includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica
    thereof, regardless of the date of manufacture. Firearms manufactured in or before 1898 that use
    fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available
    in the ordinary channels of commercial trade are also considered antiques. (Penal Code §
    12020(b)(5).)
    I obviously have a lot of reading to do, but does this mean any replica of a gun manufactured before 1898 is considered antique? So long as it follows all the rules of an antique firearm?

    Also while not being able to carry it loaded, I still have yet to find any law that prohibits its unloaded carry but then again these are the laws from 2007 correct?

    Thanks for the help though, I have quite a bit to read tonight!
    Last edited by SoCalAnon; 08-24-2013 at 06:50 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalAnon View Post
    While i have yet to go through every law, I did a fast search (Ctrl+F) with "Muzzle" "Flintlock" and "Musket" The only other law that came up was

    I obviously have a lot of reading to do, but does this mean any replica of a gun manufactured before 1898 is considered antique? So long as it follows all the rules of an antique firearm?

    Also while not being able to carry it loaded, I still have yet to find any law that prohibits its unloaded carry but then again these are the laws from 2007 correct?

    Thanks for the help though, I have quite a bit to read tonight!
    Hello OP,

    Penal Code sections 12020 and 12031 no longer exist. 12031 is now PC 25850.

    AG Camilla Harris is not a reliable source for accurate information as she has not updated her website with the new penal code sections that went into affect 1/1/2011. Yes, more than 1.5 years ago! CDFW has not updated its publications either.

    For accurate Penal Code information go to: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...Selected.xhtml

    Scroll down and click on "Part 6. Control of deadly weapons."

    If I were you, I would start with Title 4. Firearms -- 23500.

    You do have a lot of reading to do. California gun laws are convuluted and tricky by design. What the legislature can't outright ban, they are doing piecemeal and with overlapping contradictory law. The Legislature is creating a perfect system for entrapping law abiding people who have a creator granted and constitutionally protected right to the best means of self defense--a gun.

    Read People v. Knight,
    No. C045858.
    -- September 02, 2004


    Read People v. Clark, http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf

    Our society needs police officers; however, in this state LEO is not your friend. Be nice, be respectful, follow lawful commands, but never trust them.

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 09-08-2013 at 12:25 PM. Reason: clarification and general editing.

  5. #5
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    Interestingly 16520 says:

    (d) As used in the following provisions, “firearm” does not include an unloaded antique firearm:

    (1) Subdivisions (a) and (c) of Section 16730.
    (2) Section 16550.
    (3) Section 16960.
    (4) Section 17310.
    (5) Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of Title 4.
    (6) Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 26400) of Division 5 of Title 4.
    (7) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
    (8) Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
    (9) Section 27510.
    (10) Section 27530.
    (11) Section 27540.
    (12) Section 27545.
    (13) Sections 27555 to 27570, inclusive.
    (14) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
    Chapter 6 is the ban on unloaded open carry of a handgun, and chapter 7 is the ban on unloaded open carry of a firearm other than a handgun. Chapter 6 doesn't actually use the word "firearm" as it instead uses the word "handgun" but elsewhere in the penal code it defines a handgun as a pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed.

    So it would appear that unloaded open carry of a flintlock is not prohibited. (Beware of other codes like the school zone ban, though.)

    However, I don't see a quick way to load a flintlock.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 09-08-2013 at 09:32 PM.

  6. #6
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    In 16840 it says

    (a) As used in Section 25800, a firearm shall be deemed to be “loaded” whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
    (b) As used in Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 25100) of Division 4 of Title 4, in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (6) of subdivision (c) of Section 25400, and in Sections 25850 to 26055, inclusive,
    (1) A firearm shall be deemed to be “loaded” when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm.
    (2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1), a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    This makes me curious as to how a capped cylinder not attached to an antique revolver would be handled. Especially if there are multiple cylinders. The Remington 1858 can swap cylinders pretty quick. If it had an unloaded cylinder within the firearm or no cylinder at all in it, but on the belt one kept some spare cylinders that were fully capped, would this be a loaded firearm? Maybe would it count as several loaded firearms?

    On the law it appears maybe so by wording but I wonder what case law may exist.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalAnon View Post
    While i have yet to go through every law, I did a fast search (Ctrl+F) with "Muzzle" "Flintlock" and "Musket" The only other law that came up was



    I obviously have a lot of reading to do, but does this mean any replica of a gun manufactured before 1898 is considered antique? So long as it follows all the rules of an antique firearm?

    Also while not being able to carry it loaded, I still have yet to find any law that prohibits its unloaded carry but then again these are the laws from 2007 correct?

    Thanks for the help though, I have quite a bit to read tonight!
    I would just like to say, that according to the bible Its your duty to be armed and protect your self and family in public to Luke 22:36
    Also the 2-A is our Guarantee, however in this state works by Antichrist laws now, and no one is safe !
    Its sad there are no cases I have found for the Religious rights in this state.

    However in the Bill of Rights the first Amendment it says : " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    So that's why people are losing their rights in California.
    Believers in what Jesus said in Luke 22:36 If being armed is that Important that Jesus said that, then why aren't we all armed ?
    Im still looking for a case related to this cause the first amendment right to be armed !

    Robin47

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin47 View Post
    I would just like to say, that according to the bible Its your duty to be armed and protect your self and family in public to Luke 22:36
    Also the 2-A is our Guarantee, however in this state works by Antichrist laws now, and no one is safe !
    Its sad there are no cases I have found for the Religious rights in this state.

    However in the Bill of Rights the first Amendment it says : " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    So that's why people are losing their rights in California.
    Believers in what Jesus said in Luke 22:36 If being armed is that Important that Jesus said that, then why aren't we all armed ?
    Im still looking for a case related to this cause the first amendment right to be armed !

    Robin47
    The answer you Sikh is not always applicable if being armed isnt a foundational article of faith of the religion you practice or if you are entering a secure area.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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