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Thread: The one time I wasn't OC...

  1. #1
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    The one time I wasn't OC...

    ...And I bump into a Unicorn.

    I had just finished an all-day adventure helping move a family member who just happens to be a Prohibited Person out of their place, so I wasn't carrying, didn't have time to even stop home to clean up, arm up, etc. and had been asked to slip past the local (and only) pizza joint to get a pie and stix for the house.

    As I was waiting outside for the order to be ready, a male and female walk in. I noticed the male was OC'ing. Appeared to be an XD in a nylon holster with thumb strap.

    I probably would've just said nothing and gone about my business, but one thing stuck out like a signal flare: There was no mag inserted.

    Concerned that he may have accidentally released the magazine while working the seatbelt in his car or worse, could have dropped it elsewhere, I handed off my order to the person I was with, headed back inside, and engaged the carrier in conversation.

    I opened by thanking him for OC'ing. Seeming pleased that someone would do that, it was all smiles as he said he carried as a statement of Liberty, etc. etc. (the same basic statements we all use when approached out of the blue).

    I then asked asked him if he knew there was no mag in the pistol. He said yes he knew, and that it was in the forward pouch of the holster, as he "was all about safety" and such. Being pressed for time, I couldn't engage him further on that.

    I did however tell him about OCDO.

    I hope he checks us out.

  2. #2
    Regular Member turborich's Avatar
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    It's good that you talked to him about the site and it's good that he was open carrying. You would never catch me without a mag in my firearm though.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    The one time I wasn't OC...

    Woooow. Hope he comes to realize how much like carrying a rock that is before it is too late.

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    And where was his ammo? At home, for safety! Of course.

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    I don't think a prohibited person is in violation just because you have a gun holstered on your person. It is in your possession, not his. Otherwise, wouldn't he be in violation any time he was near a parole officer or other cop?
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 08-25-2013 at 07:24 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    Woooow. Hope he comes to realize how much like carrying a rock that is before it is too late.
    Typical bravado that turns people off to the culture and makes people think anyone with a gun is a nut. It's no one's concern how or why a person carries. Unless it effects you or yours. What works for you does not and will never work for everyone else. Deal with it.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 08-26-2013 at 01:56 AM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    The one time I wasn't OC...

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Typical bravado that turns people off to the culture and makes people think anyone with a gun is a nut. It's no one's concern how or why a person carries. Unless it effects you or yours. What works for you does not and will never work for everyone else. Deal with it.
    Political correctness solves nothing. And if that person was disarmed and/or killed because of the delusion that he'd be able to unholster AND seat his mag correctly the first time under duress from the same holster by cross drawing(the mag) in anything close to normal draw time which can be barely enough time chambered, I'd feel horrible nobody had the stones to explain why carrying that way is such a bad idea. It's not bravado. It's potentially saving his/his family/those around's life.

    We all have a responsibility to help others who are less experienced or may be having an off day. It is his choice to carry as he wants but his choice may change providing new information. Kudos for taking the time to even ask the question of why there was a mag missing. I'm hoping that the magless carrier does some research because of the interaction.

  8. #8
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    BS.

    We do have a responsibility. A responsibility to promote the culture. To teach. But also to understand not everyone fits a 1911 in condition one. Or has the desire or capacity to. Or the training. Or the money. Every one is different and what works for you does not work for everyone else. It is that simple. Not just singling you out personally. I talking about all of us. If the guy wants to carry an empty sidearm as a political statement so what? isn't that better than doing nothing?

    Of course not...

    And tomorrow someone will bash an open carrier on another forum for being a "target" and making everyone look bad.

    It never ends.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  9. #9
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    The one time I wasn't OC...

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    BS.

    We do have a responsibility. A responsibility to promote the culture. To teach. But also to understand not everyone fits a 1911 in condition one. Or has the desire or capacity to. Or the training. Or the money. Every one is different and what works for you does not work for everyone else. It is that simple. Not just singling you out personally. I talking about all of us. If the guy wants to carry an empty sidearm as a political statement so what? isn't that better than doing nothing?

    Of course not...

    And tomorrow someone will bash an open carrier on another forum for being a "target" and making everyone look bad.

    It never ends.
    I'm not talking about cost or 1911 fanboys. He has his sidearm. He made the investment. And no, it's not better than doing nothing. He has the equivalent of a look alike airsoft gun holstered.
    Carry condition is preference but either he trains to correctly seat a mag, rack the slide, and possibly disengage the safety or his pistol becomes a very expensive rock when he needs it most. I understand some like to carry with a safety on. Some even un chambered and safety on. But bad guys don't know that. Seeing an empty mag well is no better for prevention than not OCing at all. I hope he's never targeted or if forced to react isn't seen before his 3-4 second loading process.

  10. #10
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Funny. At least he had a sidearm. And yet HE is the one getting bashed...

    Hmmm. When are you all going to lay into the OP?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 08-26-2013 at 03:27 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Jamesm760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Funny. At least he had a sidearm. And yet HE is the one getting bashed...

    Hmmm. When are you all going to lay into the OP?
    Hey OP, no excuse on why you didn't have your sidearm, This "unicorn" you ran into could have as easily been someone trying to rob the pizza place. Then you would have really felt like crap. Mag out of the pistol is better than no pistol and no mag.

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    Re: The one time I wasn't OC...

    I wasn't OC at the time because the person I was helping was convicted last year of Domestic Violence.

    According to a couple of lawyers I spoke with last December, she can't even be in the same room as a firearm, unless it's on an LEO/Soldier/etc. If a civilian firearm comes into the room, technically she has to go elsewhere.

    (I really really hope someone was blowing smoke. If I was told wrong, clue me in. Thank you.)

    In short, if she has good reason to believe a civilian firearm is there, she has to get gone.

    There are exceptions, of course: Shopping being chief among them.

    She has admitted to going shooting with her friends since the conviction (thier guns, not hers), so it's obvious she doesn't care about laws, rules, and requirements; I, however, will not be a party to her doing time over a technicality.

    If that means going sans sidearm for 7 hours of one day out of 365, so be it. I had to take that chance. I will admit this has convinced me to get my CCW for such situations, though.

    Pick on me for not being armed for a few hours out of one day, eh? How many 2A enthusiasts do you personally know that are able to carry to/at work without being fired? (Hint: There won't be many, and those that can/do are either lucky to have a boss that understands the need for self-defense, or it's a job requirement.)

    I simply posted about a Unicorn. I also said in the OP that I would not have even given them a second thought, had it not been for what appeared to be a missing mag.

    The empty mag well is what spurred me to talk to the individual. Had I had the time (and if he was receptive) to talk further, who knows how it would have turned out?

    I just wanted to make sure he didn't actually lose the magazine at some point and not know it. How he carries is up to him. I am not him and do not know his comfort level.

    That said, I still hope he checks out OCDO.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    ...

    I just wanted to make sure he didn't actually lose the magazine at some point and not know it. How he carries is up to him. I am not him and do not know his comfort level.

    That said, I still hope he checks out OCDO.
    Me too, my comments were not directed towards you or a criticism of you. I hope if the guy does show up here he isn't bombarded with the same old tired rhetoric and false bravado that makes us all look like gun nuts.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    Regular Member Jamesm760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    I wasn't OC at the time because the person I was helping was convicted last year of Domestic Violence.

    According to a couple of lawyers I spoke with last December, she can't even be in the same room as a firearm, unless it's on an LEO/Soldier/etc. If a civilian firearm comes into the room, technically she has to go elsewhere.

    (I really really hope someone was blowing smoke. If I was told wrong, clue me in. Thank you.)

    In short, if she has good reason to believe a civilian firearm is there, she has to get gone.

    There are exceptions, of course: Shopping being chief among them.

    She has admitted to going shooting with her friends since the conviction (thier guns, not hers), so it's obvious she doesn't care about laws, rules, and requirements; I, however, will not be a party to her doing time over a technicality.

    If that means going sans sidearm for 7 hours of one day out of 365, so be it. I had to take that chance. I will admit this has convinced me to get my CCW for such situations, though.

    Pick on me for not being armed for a few hours out of one day, eh? How many 2A enthusiasts do you personally know that are able to carry to/at work without being fired? (Hint: There won't be many, and those that can/do are either lucky to have a boss that understands the need for self-defense, or it's a job requirement.)

    I simply posted about a Unicorn. I also said in the OP that I would not have even given them a second thought, had it not been for what appeared to be a missing mag.

    The empty mag well is what spurred me to talk to the individual. Had I had the time (and if he was receptive) to talk further, who knows how it would have turned out?

    I just wanted to make sure he didn't actually lose the magazine at some point and not know it. How he carries is up to him. I am not him and do not know his comfort level.

    That said, I still hope he checks out OCDO.
    I was just trying to give you a hard time. Didn't actually mean what i said

    But as far as carrying at work, that's a good subject you bring up. What has more value, your life or $$$. I skip over the Firearm policy when I get a new job. People will have to make that decision to carry where they are not supposed to, and consider possible consequences for either option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    I wasn't OC at the time because the person I was helping was convicted last year of Domestic Violence.

    According to a couple of lawyers I spoke with last December, she can't even be in the same room as a firearm, unless it's on an LEO/Soldier/etc. If a civilian firearm comes into the room, technically she has to go elsewhere.

    (I really really hope someone was blowing smoke. If I was told wrong, clue me in. Thank you.)

    In short, if she has good reason to believe a civilian firearm is there, she has to get gone.

    There are exceptions, of course: Shopping being chief among them.

    --------------------------------------; I, however, will not be a party to her doing time over a technicality.

    If that means going sans sidearm for 7 hours of one day out of 365, so be it. I had to take that chance. I will admit this has convinced me to get my CCW for such situations, though.

    Pick on me for not being armed for a few hours out of one day, eh? How many 2A enthusiasts do you personally know that are able to carry to/at work without being fired? (Hint: There won't be many, and those that can/do are either lucky to have a boss that understands the need for self-defense, or it's a job requirement.)
    I don't mean to pick on you, nor to tell you that you should be armed. And I totally understand if you want to play it safe just to avoid problems or make her feel better. However, I feel that maybe you were mislead about the rules. That is all. Felon or misdemeanor of domestic violence, either way it should only apply to a firearm in that persons possession. A firearm on a LEO/Soldier/Security Guard, etc. is under the control of that LEO/Soldier/Security guard, so it is not under the control of the convict. I doubt the distinction is civilian vs. government firearm, the distinction is most likely one of control. The firearms at stores when shopping are typically under lock and key too, but if she actually touched one of those firearms in the store she'd probably find herself in trouble.

    Is she under the terms of parole or probation or is the sentence complete? If so there may be requirements placed upon her that are more strict than what the law requires. But if she is not under special orders from a judge it seems to me that only the law applies and the law only prohibits a person so convicted from being in possession of a firearm, not from being near someone who is in possession.

    I think the lawyer is generally right. If she is knowingly in the same room as a firearm, she would be in trouble in general because it would be considered under her control/possession. I think this would apply for instance if she was in your house and you had a gun on the table or in an unlocked cabinet, or she was riding in your car and you had a gun in the center console, or she was living with her husband who kept an unsecured firearm. She would probably be in violation if she was living with a cop or soldier who had an unsecured firearm stored in the room too.

    However, if that gun is in a safe in your house when she is visiting (and she doesn't have the combo), or if it is on your person, it is NOT under her possession because it is in the safe or it is under your control.

    My guess is that the lawyer over-simplified his explanation because generally most people think of guns either being holstered by a cop or lying in some home owners closet. They don't think about legal carry of a handgun by a civilian. I bet if you were to ask those lawyers specifically about holstered firearms and not "firearms in the same room" they might have had a different answer.

    I'm no lawyer, and I have no idea what type of special court-ordered parole type demands might be placed on her, but I think it would be quite unreasonable if she could be arrested any time she happened to walk near a person who was open carrying.

    Interestingly, under Nevada laws it also appears that a person convicted of a misdemeanor of domestic violence could even possess a federally defined antique firearm as well. (A felon could not under Nevada law, but a misdemeanor of domestic violence could.) It may cause issues due to ignorance about the firearms and the laws on the part of the enforcers, but technically it appears to be so.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 08-26-2013 at 04:29 PM.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    he'd be able to unholster AND seat his mag correctly the first time under duress from the same holster by cross drawing(the mag) in anything close to normal draw time.
    It works in the movies........bwahhhhhaaaa

    (almost said that with a straight face)

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    According to a couple of lawyers I spoke with last December, she can't even be in the same room as a firearm, unless it's on an LEO/Soldier/etc. If a civilian firearm comes into the room, technically she has to go elsewhere.
    Yea I always believe lawyers....

    Since the LEO's work for us, the Soldiers work for us....ect what makes them special?

    I don't think there is a law that states a LEO or Soilder has more rights than the average LAC. What would she do if someone was CCing and she didn't know he/she had a weapon? Who's responsibility is it to make sure a room is clear before she goes into it?

    I call bull crap on this as it is "control" of the weapon that is in the meaning, not that one is in the room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    I wasn't OC at the time because the person I was helping was convicted last year of Domestic Violence.

    According to a couple of lawyers I spoke with last December, she can't even be in the same room as a firearm, unless it's on an LEO/Soldier/etc. If a civilian firearm comes into the room, technically she has to go elsewhere.

    (I really really hope someone was blowing smoke. If I was told wrong, clue me in. Thank you.)

    In short, if she has good reason to believe a civilian firearm is there, she has to get gone.
    Sounds like you received some bum dope.

    As I understand it, she can be in the same room as a firearm is, as long as it is not available to her; either due to being in actual possession of someone else, or due to being locked away.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ
    She has admitted to going shooting with her friends since the conviction (thier guns, not hers), so it's obvious she doesn't care about laws, rules, and requirements; I, however, will not be a party to her doing time over a technicality.
    That sounds as if she admitted to you that she violated the prohibition. Unless it was simply that she was with them, and was not shooting also.
    Last edited by wrightme; 08-26-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Sounds like you received some bum dope.

    As I understand it, she can be in the same room as a firearm is, as long as it is not available to her; either due to being in actual possession of someone else, or due to being locked away.



    That sounds as if she admitted to you that she violated the prohibition. Unless it was simply that she was with them, and was not shooting also.
    At the time I inquired, it wasn't bum (see bolded update below).

    On the shooting aspect: No, she was going on about how her friends complimented her aim and such, though she has been known to stretch the truth at times. So yes, she did admit to breaking the law. I *could* have reported her, but all I have is hearsay, which that and $5 will get me a cup of Starbucks coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Yea I always believe lawyers....

    Since the LEO's work for us, the Soldiers work for us....ect what makes them special?

    I don't think there is a law that states a LEO or Soilder has more rights than the average LAC. What would she do if someone was CCing and she didn't know he/she had a weapon? Who's responsibility is it to make sure a room is clear before she goes into it?

    I call bull crap on this as it is "control" of the weapon that is in the meaning, not that one is in the room.
    Doc, through reading your posts on here even for longer than I have been a member, I have come to respect what you write. You know how to joke around, and when it comes time, you are "all business". I like that.

    That said, I would take a lawyer's word on law over what an LEO says is the law on most matters. I did call more than one in an attempt to avoid opinion vs. law. Unless they were in cahoots (which I find unlikely, as I chose at random), the answers meshed.


    Now the update: Just got off the phone with the court she was through. As of the end of last month, as they are concerned, her case is closed; no probation, parole or anything else.

    Now it's just down to the Lautenberg side of things.


    On the "control" issue, you guys may be right. Now that I have a moment to think on it exclusively, I believe you.

    IOW, I was extra-conscious to keep her out of trouble, while she apparently didn't give a darn. Either way, the County's control over her is over.

    From here out, not a second thought will be given if she happens to come around when I'm OC.

  20. #20
    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    The one time I wasn't OC...

    FWIW and IMO - If you want to know laws don't ask a cop, don't ask a lawyer, don't ask a friend, don't ask an Internet forum...research the law and find out for yourself.

    When I was going through the immigration process I decided to skip on a lawyer and do my own research and paper filing. Guess what I found out in the process? Lawyers were giving misinformation and making mistakes all over the place. People who filed at the same timeframe as I did but paid thousands of dollars for a lawyer were getting paperwork refused and request for more information. Myself - I never got a single request for information, my process was streamlined and I had a green card in less than 6 months while those who trusted lawyers were still waiting.

    Long story short - average lawyers don't know as much as we give them credit for and I would be willing to wager that they gave you a lazy and quite possibly liberal biased answer to your free question...

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    FWIW and IMO - If you want to know laws don't ask a cop, don't ask a lawyer, don't ask a friend, don't ask an Internet forum...research the law and find out for yourself.

    When I was going through the immigration process I decided to skip on a lawyer and do my own research and paper filing. Guess what I found out in the process? Lawyers were giving misinformation and making mistakes all over the place. People who filed at the same timeframe as I did but paid thousands of dollars for a lawyer were getting paperwork refused and request for more information. Myself - I never got a single request for information, my process was streamlined and I had a green card in less than 6 months while those who trusted lawyers were still waiting.

    Long story short - average lawyers don't know as much as we give them credit for and I would be willing to wager that they gave you a lazy and quite possibly liberal biased answer to your free question...
    +1 as the lawyers are in it for the money...not the justice.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    At the time I inquired, it wasn't bum (see bolded update below).

    On the shooting aspect: No, she was going on about how her friends complimented her aim and such, though she has been known to stretch the truth at times. So yes, she did admit to breaking the law. I *could* have reported her, but all I have is hearsay, which that and $5 will get me a cup of Starbucks coffee.



    Doc, through reading your posts on here even for longer than I have been a member, I have come to respect what you write. You know how to joke around, and when it comes time, you are "all business". I like that.

    That said, I would take a lawyer's word on law over what an LEO says is the law on most matters. I did call more than one in an attempt to avoid opinion vs. law. Unless they were in cahoots (which I find unlikely, as I chose at random), the answers meshed.


    Now the update: Just got off the phone with the court she was through. As of the end of last month, as they are concerned, her case is closed; no probation, parole or anything else.

    Now it's just down to the Lautenberg side of things.


    On the "control" issue, you guys may be right. Now that I have a moment to think on it exclusively, I believe you.

    IOW, I was extra-conscious to keep her out of trouble, while she apparently didn't give a darn. Either way, the County's control over her is over.

    From here out, not a second thought will be given if she happens to come around when I'm OC.
    Thanks for the kind words Bonz

    I try to have fun as I realized after being in 3 wars life is short and I want to live it free...(now that I'm out of the military...lol)

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    Re: The one time I wasn't OC...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    FWIW and IMO - If you want to know laws don't ask a cop, don't ask a lawyer, don't ask a friend, don't ask an Internet forum...research the law and find out for yourself.

    When I was going through the immigration process I decided to skip on a lawyer and do my own research and paper filing. Guess what I found out in the process? Lawyers were giving misinformation and making mistakes all over the place. People who filed at the same timeframe as I did but paid thousands of dollars for a lawyer were getting paperwork refused and request for more information. Myself - I never got a single request for information, my process was streamlined and I had a green card in less than 6 months while those who trusted lawyers were still waiting.

    Long story short - average lawyers don't know as much as we give them credit for and I would be willing to wager that they gave you a lazy and quite possibly liberal biased answer to your free question...
    I agree with your summation; They probably did give me liberal answers.

    Oddly enough, I normally do look up laws (Fed and/or whichever state I'm interested in). I don't know why I didn't this time. Did the same thing with my divorce (trusted a lawyer, as the case was out of state), and I got nailed to the wall.

    Don't ask me why I trusted not one but two this time. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.
    Last edited by b0neZ; 08-27-2013 at 11:15 AM.

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    Re: The one time I wasn't OC...

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Thanks for the kind words Bonz

    I try to have fun as I realized after being in 3 wars life is short and I want to live it free...(now that I'm out of the military...lol)
    Anytime. I just call em as I see em.

    3 extended runs through the sandbox would be enough to give anyone the fits. Glad you came back safe and sane.

  25. #25
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    Anytime. I just call em as I see em.

    3 extended runs through the sandbox would be enough to give anyone the fits. Glad you came back safe and sane.
    Safe...Kinda I got a shoulder injury on my last day in country while I was waiting for a plane out; we got attacked. I think I was more upset it was my last day and I was standing outside the T-barriers when we got hit and not that I got hurt.

    Sane...That is debatable, just ask my wife.

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