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Thread: Borders?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Borders?

    I had an odd question posed to me today by a friend:

    If I am standing PRECISELY astride a state border (perhaps using differential GPS to get there), which state's laws govern my firearm carry? Would which side of my body (or which hand) I have the gun on matter?

    I doubt it has ever happened before in history. But it's an odd thing to consider, isn't it? A more plausible scenario is standing astride city limits, I had a friend years back who technically would have been required to switch schools if his parents ever swapped which bedrooms belonged to him and his brother. If you're in a state without preemption, and one city bans open carry and the other does not, which laws apply to someone with literally one foot in each city?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Although not about firearms, the issue of straddling the border comes up quite frequently.

    Applying the same general principle that is used in determining tax location for a house that straddles a border - in which jurisdiction is the bedroom located? - I'd venture that the state the handgun is in would have jurisdiction. However, it would only be resolved in a lengthy court processes if a cop from the other jurisdiction were to deal with you.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Although not about firearms, the issue of straddling the border comes up quite frequently.

    Applying the same general principle that is used in determining tax location for a house that straddles a border - in which jurisdiction is the bedroom located? - I'd venture that the state the handgun is in would have jurisdiction. However, it would only be resolved in a lengthy court processes if a cop from the other jurisdiction were to deal with you.

    stay safe.
    but if you run away from that cop now that police officer is pursuing you outside of their jurisdiction.... so if you run away, get far enough away from him that he's no longer in hot pursuit... you get arrested by authorities on the more leinient state, and then file a writ of habeus corpus claiming you were never subject to the state seeking extradition. then file a subpeona to the NSA saying you want all their records about the location of your cell phone, which will show your exact GPS coordinates, placing you on the ride side and thus your charges are dismissed....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    but if you run away from that cop now that police officer is pursuing you outside of their jurisdiction.... so if you run away, get far enough away from him that he's no longer in hot pursuit... you get arrested by authorities on the more leinient state, and then file a writ of habeus corpus claiming you were never subject to the state seeking extradition. then file a subpeona to the NSA saying you want all their records about the location of your cell phone, which will show your exact GPS coordinates, placing you on the ride side and thus your charges are dismissed....
    Cops pursuing across STATE lines is a major pain in the butt, procedurally speaking... iirc, the state requesting extradition back to their state has to get a 'governor's warrant' and there are all sorts of issued of extradition, etc.

    I won't even get into the NSA stuff

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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    What about a bordering country? Can they just drag you across to their side?
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    Quote Originally Posted by badkarma View Post
    What about a bordering country? Can they just drag you across to their side?
    Of course not.

    However, hot pursuit into another country is not an area I have looked into much, since I don't life near a border. I am sure cops in locales that border (or come close) to our neighbors to the north or south have had some training in this area

    In brief, if it is ever justified for a US cop to hot pursue into canada or mexico, I'd be pretty surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if a cop who tried that, got arrested on the spot. Fwiw, iirc "dog" the bounty hunter got into hot water pulling some crap in mexico once.

    Extraditing from another state, and pursuing into one is problematic enough! Another country? Hell no!

    Btw, there is one town in WA that actually is a peninsula that you have to travel THROUGH canada to get to

    Google up "point roberts". It's a little town that is bordered to the north by british columbia Canada, and to the east, west and south by water.

    Canada also has issues of extradition when it comes to people facing the death penalty.

    I quote : National courts, such as the Supreme Court of Canada, have likewise held that extraditions of suspects to face the death penalty are constitutionally prohibited. See Minister of Justice v. Burns and Rafay, 2001 SCC 7 (S.C. Canada, 22 March 2001). Burns and Rafay are both Canadians who were 18 years old at the time they allegedly murdered Rafay's parents and sister in the state of Washington. They then fled to Canada. Washington charged them with first-degree murder, a capital crime.
    The Canadian Minister of Justice signed an extradition order for both men, refusing to seek assurances that the death penalty would not be imposed upon Burns' and Rafay's return to the United States. Burns and Rafay appealed. After commenting on recent exonerations of death row inmates in the United States, reviewing the "international trend against the death penalty," and other practical problems in the administration of the death penalty, the Supreme Court of Canada ultimately held that article 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms precluded the defendants' extradition, absent assurances the United States would not seek the death penalty.


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    I don't know but I'm certain that the states have fine mental health facilities ...

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    Of course not.

    However, hot pursuit into another country is not an area I have looked into much, since I don't life near a border. I am sure cops in locales that border (or come close) to our neighbors to the north or south have had some training in this area

    In brief, if it is ever justified for a US cop to hot pursue into canada or mexico, I'd be pretty surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if a cop who tried that, got arrested on the spot. Fwiw, iirc "dog" the bounty hunter got into hot water pulling some crap in mexico once.

    Extraditing from another state, and pursuing into one is problematic enough! Another country? Hell no!

    Btw, there is one town in WA that actually is a peninsula that you have to travel THROUGH canada to get to

    Google up "point roberts". It's a little town that is bordered to the north by british columbia Canada, and to the east, west and south by water.

    Canada also has issues of extradition when it comes to people facing the death penalty.

    I quote : National courts, such as the Supreme Court of Canada, have likewise held that extraditions of suspects to face the death penalty are constitutionally prohibited. See Minister of Justice v. Burns and Rafay, 2001 SCC 7 (S.C. Canada, 22 March 2001). Burns and Rafay are both Canadians who were 18 years old at the time they allegedly murdered Rafay's parents and sister in the state of Washington. They then fled to Canada. Washington charged them with first-degree murder, a capital crime.
    The Canadian Minister of Justice signed an extradition order for both men, refusing to seek assurances that the death penalty would not be imposed upon Burns' and Rafay's return to the United States. Burns and Rafay appealed. After commenting on recent exonerations of death row inmates in the United States, reviewing the "international trend against the death penalty," and other practical problems in the administration of the death penalty, the Supreme Court of Canada ultimately held that article 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms precluded the defendants' extradition, absent assurances the United States would not seek the death penalty.


    Cheers
    a US cop would have trouble considering that without Canadian authorization they have no legal authority to carry a firearm into Canada. I would guess that if police are pursuing a suspect and he's heading towards a border then they would radio out and have dispatch contact the Border Patrol who would block the fleeing vehicle from entering the country. right?

    I remember an episode of law and order awhile back where a serial killer flees new york, and enters canada, and is arrested, the New York County DA wants the death penalty, but Canada won't extradict as it's a capital crime, so the DA amends their extradition petition, and goes before the Canadian Court

    Canadian lawyer: your honor, New York is seeking extradition for a capital crime, they need to assure us they won't pursue the death penalty

    NY DA: your honor, as of this morning we've amended the petition for extradition, the defendant entered canada in a stolen car, since the value of the car exceeded 4,000 dollars it's a felony amount and we're seeking extradition for auto theft

    Canadian lawyer: your honor! they're just going to charge him with murder once he's back in the united States

    Canadian Judge: This court cannot make hypothetical declarations about what may or may not happen, defendant is to be extradicted for auto theft

    of course they charge him with capital murder once he's back in the land of uncle sam.
    I love L&O even if it's not 100% accurate...


    Dog got in trouble because he entered Mexico, as a private citizen, and took Luster into his custody by force (kidnapping) and returned him to the United States. it wasn't a hot pursuit, he acted outside of authority and took another private citizen back by force.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 08-25-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    a US cop would have trouble considering that without Canadian authorization they have no legal authority to carry a firearm into Canada. I would guess that if police are pursuing a suspect and he's heading towards a border then they would radio out and have dispatch contact the Border Patrol who would block the fleeing vehicle from entering the country. right?

    I remember an episode of law and order awhile back where a serial killer flees new york, and enters canada, and is arrested, the New York County DA wants the death penalty, but Canada won't extradict as it's a capital crime, so the DA amends their extradition petition, and goes before the Canadian Court

    Canadian lawyer: your honor, New York is seeking extradition for a capital crime, they need to assure us they won't pursue the death penalty

    NY DA: your honor, as of this morning we've amended the petition for extradition, the defendant entered canada in a stolen car, since the value of the car exceeded 4,000 dollars it's a felony amount and we're seeking extradition for auto theft

    Canadian lawyer: your honor! they're just going to charge him with murder once he's back in the united States

    Canadian Judge: This court cannot make hypothetical declarations about what may or may not happen, defendant is to be extradicted for auto theft

    of course they charge him with capital murder once he's back in the land of uncle sam.
    I love L&O even if it's not 100% accurate...
    Until recently, the border patrol guys in canada (the ones at the border) WERE NOT ARMED. Their official policy if the US cops were in pursuit of a dangerous subject headed their way was the call the RCMP and ABANDON their kiosks to a safe place indoor. I kid you not, lol.

    My understanding was their latest leader said he was going to arm them,. so they're probably NOW armed

    I remember that L&O episode. L&O was definitely prone to sacrifice accuracy for entertainment.

    I had some inlaws travel through canada recently to a fishing trip in alaska/ They actually had no problem carrying their handguns into canada, since they were in a MOTOR HOME. Apparently, as long as they kept their firearms in the portion of the motor home that was not the driving portion (iow the driver seat area), it was treated like a home and there wasn't much hassle in getting authorization.

    I have no idea how Point Roberts cops deal with the gun issue. apart from boat, the only way between their town and mainland US is through canada.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    I have no idea how Point Roberts cops deal with the gun issue. apart from boat, the only way between their town and mainland US is through canada.
    well point roberts is serviced by a substation of the Whatcom County Sheriff's office

    My guesses

    1)the deputies drive unarmed in their patrol car from Blaine to PR, then arm up at the station on PR.
    2) the deputies assigned there might live there...... so that negates the issue.
    3) they leave the cars, on point roberts and move deputies by boat to PR with all their equipment
    4) special agreement with Canada?

    My guess is probably deputies assigned there just drive to work through the borders and they put on their gun and police equipment at the station on PR itself.

    then again, this is probably not a big secret, one can probably just call Whatcom sheriff and ask nicely.... if you care enough to know.

    Better question, if you find a safe spot to shoot with a steep hill on the canadian side being the backstop and you start shooting rounds that land in the canadian hill what, if any laws are you violating?

    BTW EDIT

    found this, only applies to prisoners and SWAT teams though... doesn't mention patrol deputies from the Whatcom sheriff website I also found a 2003 dated article from the Seattle Times that said the Whatcom deputies assigned at that time were residents.

    MARINE UNIT MISSION
    The Whatcom County Sheriff’s Office provides marine patrols and emergency response on the county lakes, the Nooksack River, along the county shoreline and on Bellingham Bay. Point Roberts, the part of the county that lies at the west end of British Columbia, can only be reached by transit through Canada, by air or by water. Point Roberts has no airfield. The Canadian government does not permit prisoners to be transported through Canada which requires the Sheriff’s Office to transport prisoners to the county proper by boat across the Straits of Georgia, Hales Pass and Bellingham Bay. Due to adverse weather conditions the trip may be made across Boundary Bay into the City of Blaine. The Sheriff’s Office Special Response Team cannot respond to Point Roberts incidents with its weapons and other equipment by transit through Canada and must respond by helicopter or by boat. The county does not own a helicopter(Why the hell not? with geography like that why didn't they get in on the game when Uncle Sam was giving away helicopters?).
    considering the majority of full time residents on the point are actually canadians, I wonder how well open carry would be recieved on the point... get a few OCers to pull into the Marina by boat (hey SVG, do you have a boat?) and then have a meetup at a resturaunt....
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 08-25-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    well point roberts is serviced by a substation of the Whatcom County Sheriff's office

    My guesses

    1)the deputies drive unarmed in their patrol car from Blaine to PR, then arm up at the station on PR.
    2) the deputies assigned there might live there...... so that negates the issue.
    3) they leave the cars, on point roberts and move deputies by boat to PR with all their equipment
    4) special agreement with Canada?

    My guess is probably deputies assigned there just drive to work through the borders and they put on their gun and police equipment at the station on PR itself.

    then again, this is probably not a big secret, one can probably just call Whatcom sheriff and ask nicely.... if you care enough to know.

    Better question, if you find a safe spot to shoot with a steep hill on the canadian side being the backstop and you start shooting rounds that land in the canadian hill what, if any laws are you violating?

    BTW EDIT

    found this, only applies to prisoners and SWAT teams though... doesn't mention patrol deputies from the Whatcom sheriff website



    considering the majority of full time residents on the point are actually canadians, I wonder how well open carry would be recieved on the point... get a few OCers to pull into the Marina by boat (hey SVG, do you have a boat?) and then have a meetup at a resturaunt....
    Open carrying in Point Roberts would certainly be fun! I think it's hilarious they have to use a boat to book a prisoner! what a pain

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    well point roberts is serviced by a substation of the Whatcom County Sheriff's office

    My guesses

    1)the deputies drive unarmed in their patrol car from Blaine to PR, then arm up at the station on PR.
    2) the deputies assigned there might live there...... so that negates the issue.
    3) they leave the cars, on point roberts and move deputies by boat to PR with all their equipment
    4) special agreement with Canada?

    My guess is probably deputies assigned there just drive to work through the borders and they put on their gun and police equipment at the station on PR itself.

    then again, this is probably not a big secret, one can probably just call Whatcom sheriff and ask nicely.... if you care enough to know.

    Better question, if you find a safe spot to shoot with a steep hill on the canadian side being the backstop and you start shooting rounds that land in the canadian hill what, if any laws are you violating?

    BTW EDIT

    found this, only applies to prisoners and SWAT teams though... doesn't mention patrol deputies from the Whatcom sheriff website I also found a 2003 dated article from the Seattle Times that said the Whatcom deputies assigned at that time were residents.



    considering the majority of full time residents on the point are actually canadians, I wonder how well open carry would be recieved on the point... get a few OCers to pull into the Marina by boat (hey SVG, do you have a boat?) and then have a meetup at a resturaunt....
    Had a boat and even considered heading out there......but not any more. Miss my boat water temperature was great for wakeboarding this year.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Another country? Think about this:

    Back in my days as a young man (60's) there was a guy from the town I was born in (Port Alberni, BC) that had moved to California (green card) for work. As a good law abiding legal resident, he registered for the draft. After about a year in Calif. he decided he really did not want to live down there, gave up his green card, and moved back to Port Alberni.

    His number came up for the draft, Selective Service sent him is "Friends and Neighbor's" letter, and he ignored it...after all, he had no intention of ever moving back to the US to work and reside. Well, a couple FBI agents drove up to Canada and arrested him for draft evasion (they did not declare their intentions at the border, and did not involve the RCMP in any way). He asked if he could pack a few things first, and while packing up called the RCMP and told them he was being kidnapped.

    Well, those FBI agents spend quite awhile in the Canadian Slammer... charged with Kidnapping, firearms possession, false entry...yep, they were in BIG trouble. Well, the US government wanted their agents back and agreed not to pursue any more "draft dodgers" into Canada, and also agreed never to send any US LE into Canada for any reason unless they contacted the RCMP BEFORE ENTRY. If the US wants a deserter, it has to go through Canadian courts first... which is how it should always have been, but then there are some in LE (even federal LE) that do not know international law.

    PS: NO this was not me, I did two tours in Vietnam, and became a US Citizen on my return.
    Last edited by hermannr; 08-26-2013 at 02:57 PM.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Another country? Think about this:

    Well, those FBI agents spend quite awhile in the Canadian Slammer... charged with Kidnapping, firearms possession, false entry...yep, they were in BIG trouble. Well, the US government wanted their agents back and agreed not to pursue any more "draft dodgers" into Canada, and also agreed never to send any US LE into Canada for any reason unless they contacted the RCMP BEFORE ENTRY. If the US wants a deserter, it has to go through Canadian courts first... which is how it should always have been, but then there are some in LE (even federal LE) that do not know international law.
    I believe you 100% on the story, but I would love to read more about this... do you know of any details that I can use to look for more info... I'd like to see if anything explains exactly what the hell the feds were thinking...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Re: Borders?

    My dad worked for customs at the border. One of the crossings has a shared building where the lunch room was on the Canadian side. US personnel that was armed would have to disarm before going to lunch. US customs agents at the Vancouver airport had to work unarmed as well. This was a while ago so things might have changed but that's the way it used to be. I'll have to ask about giving chase to fugitives crossing the border.
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    Re: Borders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    A more plausible scenario is standing astride city limits, I had a friend years back who technically would have been required to switch schools if his parents ever swapped which bedrooms belonged to him and his brother. If you're in a state without preemption, and one city bans open carry and the other does not, which laws apply to someone with literally one foot in each city?
    Your friend or his parents may have joked about this, but the reality is that the decision was based on street address, not the location of the bedroom. Heck, the parents probably just said it to stop the kid from bothering them about swapping rooms.


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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    Your friend or his parents may have joked about this, but the reality is that the decision was based on street address, not the location of the bedroom. Heck, the parents probably just said it to stop the kid from bothering them about swapping rooms.
    The property was a double lot, with a main house and a guest house. The guest house was across the dividing line of school districts from the main house; While both lots were owned by the same people and a fence enclosed both as a single lot, the county considered them to be separate plots of land. My friend's grandmother got sick and moved into the house causing a bedroom shortage, so his older brother (17 at the time) talked his parents into letting him sleep in the guest house.

    It would have been very unlikely for their parents to swap where a 13 year old and a 17 year old slept under those conditions, but in theory it could have forced a school switch. The older brother discovered that the guest house was technically a separate address, which is one of the reasons he wanted to sleep there (to get mail unscreened by his mother, heh).
    Last edited by Difdi; 08-27-2013 at 11:34 PM.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    The property was a double lot, with a main house and a guest house. The guest house was across the dividing line of school districts from the main house; While both lots were owned by the same people and a fence enclosed both as a single lot, the county considered them to be separate plots of land. My friend's grandmother got sick and moved into the house causing a bedroom shortage, so his older brother (17 at the time) talked his parents into letting him sleep in the guest house.

    It would have been very unlikely for their parents to swap where a 13 year old and a 17 year old slept under those conditions, but in theory it could have forced a school switch. The older brother discovered that the guest house was technically a separate address, which is one of the reasons he wanted to sleep there (to get mail unscreened by his mother, heh).
    Why would it require a school switch? If the owner is paying property tax in both states you can't really argue they're cheating the system by e rolling a student in a district where they're paying the prop tax to.... I seriously doubt anyone would've done anything if they switched the kids to the guest house...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Why would it require a school switch? If the owner is paying property tax in both states you can't really argue they're cheating the system by e rolling a student in a district where they're paying the prop tax to.... I seriously doubt anyone would've done anything if they switched the kids to the guest house...
    Going to a school in the district you live in is covered by your taxes. Going to someone else's school is often not allowed, or if it is, costs extra. Even if the taxpayer is paying taxes both places, bureaucracies don't have to make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I believe you 100% on the story, but I would love to read more about this... do you know of any details that I can use to look for more info... I'd like to see if anything explains exactly what the hell the feds were thinking...
    I'm sorry I cannot get more specific, this old memory is not keeping details like it use to. Happened about the time I went into service (1967 or just slightly before) and because it was my "home" town, I heard about it. (home town as in the place I was born, though, personally I have lived may places, my mom was good at keeping up contacts with people everywhere we had lived. My dad was a Lutheran pastor.)

    I do know there is a book about Canada and Vietnam, do not know the title, but that shouldn't be too hard to find. The incident should be in the book if it was properly researched. Canada changed it's policy on allowing draft dodgers/deserters (men of draft-able age that did not have valid discharge papers) in 67, so it happened before that. I do know, no matter what the wiki says, that incident was the reason for Canada's change in policy. From a quick review on the net looks like it was hushed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    Cops pursuing across STATE lines is a major pain in the butt, procedurally speaking... iirc, the state requesting extradition back to their state has to get a 'governor's warrant' and there are all sorts of issued of extradition, etc.

    I won't even get into the NSA stuff
    Washington State Patrol actually has jurisdiction 8 miles into Oregon to prevent these types of situations from occurring. I'm unsure of what the law/policy is with Idaho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger54 View Post
    Washington State Patrol actually has jurisdiction 8 miles into Oregon to prevent these types of situations from occurring. I'm unsure of what the law/policy is with Idaho.
    I believe you are wrong on this. Cite please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    I believe you are wrong on this. Cite please.
    it could happen...

    190.472
    Mutual interstate law enforcement assistance agreements
    A full-time, fully compensated police officer commissioned by the State of Washington, Idaho or California or any full-time, fully compensated police officer commissioned by a unit of local government of the State of Washington, Idaho or California may exercise any authority that the officers commission vests in the officer throughout the territorial bounds of Oregon if the officer is acting pursuant to a mutual law enforcement assistance agreement between a law enforcement agency of the neighboring state and a law enforcement agency of Oregon. [1997 c.855 1]
    however i can't find any specific agreement with the WA state patrol to that effect. the legal groundwork is there, but the agreement may or may not exist.
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    2,769
    Yes Eric, it "COULD" happen, but in my experience, unless you are in a situation other than a specific request for assistance or fresh pursuit, there does not exist a "blanket" extension of authority beyond your jurisdictional boundries.

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