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Thread: Unpleasant walk through Duluth.

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    Unpleasant walk through Duluth.

    Ill start by noting this isn't exactly an "open carry" related thread...

    A few months ago I went up to MN to visit a friend, and while they were doing something I went off on my own to explore duluth. I walked from Miller Hill Mall down to the Canal park and back. My route included Lake road (not fun to walk up!), when I was walking back and made it to the top of the hill, THEN an LEO stopped me and asked if I was carrying, then suddenly, I had guns pointed at me and was cuffed, in total there were 5 officers and the chief there. I apparently was printing and someone called it in. I have a CPL and looked on here before I did anything and y'all said CC or OC was legal with my CPL. After the LEOs ran everything (took like 30+ minutes!) they cleared me, gave me back my gun (and I even convinced them to drive me the rest of the way, seriously, whats with no sidewalks out on 194?)

    I'm pretty annoyed about the whole situtatuon, but was wondering if there was something I could do so some other random innocent person don't get held at gun point for no reason...

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Ask yourself what you'd rather do. Harass an obviously safe, law-abiding citizen out for a walk or go after a dangerous criminal somewhere?

    Glad you weren't harmed.

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    Sounds as though they would be ripe for lawsuit if you can document it well enough

    Quote Originally Posted by rix937 View Post
    Ill start by noting this isn't exactly an "open carry" related thread...

    A few months ago I went up to MN to visit a friend, and while they were doing something I went off on my own to explore duluth. I walked from Miller Hill Mall down to the Canal park and back. My route included Lake road (not fun to walk up!), when I was walking back and made it to the top of the hill, THEN an LEO stopped me and asked if I was carrying, then suddenly, I had guns pointed at me and was cuffed, in total there were 5 officers and the chief there. I apparently was printing and someone called it in. I have a CPL and looked on here before I did anything and y'all said CC or OC was legal with my CPL. After the LEOs ran everything (took like 30+ minutes!) they cleared me, gave me back my gun (and I even convinced them to drive me the rest of the way, seriously, whats with no sidewalks out on 194?)

    I'm pretty annoyed about the whole situtatuon, but was wondering if there was something I could do so some other random innocent person don't get held at gun point for no reason...
    From your description, I do not see anything to warrant pointing guns at you. It sounds as though they violated your rights.

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    Re: Unpleasant walk through Duluth.

    Duluth is a very very liberal town. So I can see why they would even though they can't. Did ya file a report?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    From your description, I do not see anything to warrant pointing guns at you. It sounds as though they violated your rights.
    I don't know what the laws say for MN, but to the best of my knowledge I did absolutely nothing wrong, not even jay walking. Being an armed person on lake ave is apparently pretty serious business. They said there were 4-5 violent crimes/murders in the last month. So obviously they presumed I was the guilty party... who else carries but criminals...? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by FuelHauler87 View Post
    Duluth is a very very liberal town. So I can see why they would even though they can't. Did ya file a report?
    I did not. I don't know to whom should I file it with, and I cant easily file suit. Who do you/y'all suggest?

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rix937 View Post
    I don't know what the laws say for MN, but to the best of my knowledge I did absolutely nothing wrong, not even jay walking. Being an armed person on lake ave is apparently pretty serious business. They said there were 4-5 violent crimes/murders in the last month. So obviously they presumed I was the guilty party... who else carries but criminals...? :P

    I did not. I don't know to whom should I file it with, and I cant easily file suit. Who do you/y'all suggest?
    In MN, case law dictates that the presence of a firearm is sufficient for a stop and ID.

    While your rights were clearly violated, I don't see that a lawsuit is in your future, unless you suffered and damages, especially since so much time has passed


    Send me a private message with the Date / Time / Location, I'll get a Data Practices request for their notes, reports and communications.
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    [QUOTE=robdoar;1979448]In MN, case law dictates that the presence of a firearm is sufficient for a stop and ID.

    Hello OP,

    There is this pesky document that reigns supreme over MN case law regarding civil liberties, it is called the U.S. Constitution.

    SCOTUS and its inferior courts have ruled many times that a legally carried gun is not RAS for detention nor PC for arrest. SCOTUS ruled in Nevada v. Hibell, that a perp is supposed to give their name (not ID) if RAS exists AND the particular state has a legal stop-and-ID statute. California's Stop-and-ID statute was vacated in Kolender v. Lawson by the Supremes. New York's Stop-and-Frisk was just vacated by a federal judge.

    The federal courts have compared cell phones, and wallets to legally carried guns.

    The courts have ruled that carving out an exemption from 4A for 2A would "effectively evicerate the 4th Amendment."

    The best synopsis that encompasses this whole issue is Matthew St. John v. Alamogordo Police Officers.

    Here it is: http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/gunst...ce%20Order.pdf

    Please sue these liberal bas_ards under 42 USC 1983 and 1989.

    Thanks,

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 09-23-2013 at 11:13 PM.

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    If the OP has the money and legs to bring a weak case all the way to the supreme court, go for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    If the OP has the money and legs to bring a weak case all the way to the supreme court, go for it.
    Hello robdoar,

    I will concede my point regarding our difference of opinion if you can cite relevent jurisprudence. However, MN case law is not relevent because this is a federal case. The federal courts have reems of case law that seem to clearly make this an unlawful detainment.

    U.S. v. King, Florida v. J.L., U.S. v. Ubilles, and Delaware v. Prouse are good cases to read regarding this issue. The first three are gun/4A related.

    The latter case was for a LEO who was stopping cars randomly for an ID and registration check. SCOTUS ruled that, even though operators of motor vehicles are required to have a driver's license, it is a 4A violation unless the operator of the car broke a law or had a broken part on the car.

    Of course, Terry v. Ohio is instructive.

    MN may have a detain, draw weapon, frisk, and check ID for 30 minutes law--too bad that law does not meet the federal 4A standard.

    markm

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Your opinion unfortunately means nothing with the courts here.

    You know whose opinion matters to prosecutors? The courts.

    I very well agree with the fact that by MY interpretation, his rights were violated, but us standing on a soap box screaming 4th amendment isn't going to change that it has already been codified in case law that "Having a gun = sufficient cause for ID"

    MN is not a terry stop state, but since we require a permit to carry, if an officer sees someone carry they are within their scope of duties to stop and id the person, and validate the permit. (MN v Timberlake)

    Finally, I have the information from the incident I received from my data practices act. There are numerous reasons why there is a very slim chance at a lawsuit,. I'll post the info if/when the OP gives it the OK.

    Unfortunately, felony stops of this nature happen from time to time in Minnesota, and I hate it, but do you think that LEO and prosecutors don't know about the 4th amendment? All the officer has to do is articulate a suspicion of a felony, or danger to him or public.
    What it is going to take is a good case, a great team of attorneys, and a lot of money to get the status quo changed.
    Last edited by robdoar; 09-30-2013 at 05:49 AM.
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    Only thing I could think of is maybe because you looked like someone not from the "hood". Anything above 4th street from Lake Ave to about 10 Ave E is typically a high crime area of town. I could see the stop and request for ID and permit but to go that far is nucking futs. But as of yet I have opened carried around Duluth since my permit came in middle if Sept and haven't had a run in except with a DNR officer at a Holiday and he just wanted to check out my G22 RTF2

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    Minnesota requires a permit to carry a handgun, open carry or concealed carry. You "MUST" present permit upon request to LEO asking, I don't know the statute off hand, check out my posting on "law cards".
    Good things to practice are, carry IDs in the opposing pocket of your firearm, dress appropriately, be prepared to record audio/video when being stopped, and if you do get stopped, state to the officer that you do not consent to search and or seizure of my persons or property (may help from being or feeling violated), this relativity is based off the LEOs probable cause to stop and search.

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    I know consenting to searches is a bad thing, but whenever someone has their hands on a gun and seemingly is looking to shoot me, I tend to let my freedom be eroded a bit. (judged by 12 and all)

    Which is why I came on here to ask you all. The "hello" to "are you carrying" to *guns being drawn on me* was a matter of a few seconds, and the rest of the 30+ minutes was being in handcuffed/"detained" , no real clear opportunity to claim my legal standing as an innocent person. The after action report seems like the time to complain to whomever will fix the situation, yet also resulting in me not being shot.

    I really appreciate robdoar's help on the situation!

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rix937 View Post
    I know consenting to searches is a bad thing, but whenever someone has their hands on a gun and seemingly is looking to shoot me, I tend to let my freedom be eroded a bit. (judged by 12 and all)

    Which is why I came on here to ask you all. The "hello" to "are you carrying" to *guns being drawn on me* was a matter of a few seconds, and the rest of the 30+ minutes was being in handcuffed/"detained" , no real clear opportunity to claim my legal standing as an innocent person. The after action report seems like the time to complain to whomever will fix the situation, yet also resulting in me not being shot.

    I really appreciate robdoar's help on the situation!
    He handcuffed you? He failed to mention that in his report. He said he gave you a ride to your car.

    Please let me know. If he handcuffed you, that's a bigger deal than a temporary detainment.
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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Well, its been over 4 months since he checked in. Does anyone know who the OP is so we can check on him? If Duluth is anything like Menomonie or Eau Claire WI, he's in some legal trouble for filing a report.

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